Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

(very) poor performance

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • (very) poor performance

    I have a very simple problem, however this post will be a bit all over the place, so please bear with me.
    Here’s the thread about my RS bobber and the mods made before and after the build: https://www.roadstarclinic.com/forum...0-my-rs-bobber

    When I bought the bike, I obviously rode it a bit. That being said, it was a large bagger, a type of bike I wasn’t used to handle, and literally dripping in flawless chrome, so needless to say I was extremely cautious during the test ride. I didn’t push the bike and simply got a feel for the torque, checked that the gears were shifting all the way up and down, checked the general state which was excellent, etc…
    I rode it very little before starting the build. Basically I rode it to and back form the workshop, mostly in traffic. I also made a week end trip with it but:
    • I was riding with my Royal Enfield group, and REs, especially the old models, are slow bikes
    • Thailand is the second deadliest country in term of road accidents, and the vast bulk of them involve bikes (around 80%). That’s pretty much the worst country to ride in when it comes to safety, so I’m a very cautious rider. That week end I had my GF on the back of the bike, so I wasn’t only cautious, I was extra-cautious.
    So I really didn’t push the bike hard that week end. I do remember, however, that it was pulling effortlessly to the max speed I rode at, around 75mph.
    I asked the bike previous owner what was the max speed he ever made with the bike, and he told me that he never really pushed it to the limit but that he was hitting 100-110 without sweating too much, which is in line with the performance of the stock bike and not surprising considering the performance upgrades that he made. For those among you who haven’t checked the thread I linked above, these mods were:
    • Dynatek DYNA 3000 ignition
    • Speedstar ported cyl heads
    • Speedstar HC forged pistons
    • L&D HP cams
    • Baron ported intake manifold
    • Baron jet kit
    • S&S Customs air filter
    Then I bobbed the bike and added the following performance parts:
    • Cobra long shot exhausts
    • Mikuni HSR 42 carb
    I made my first ride with a some buddies and the max speed I hit during this week end has been 110mph on the clock. Nothing really wrong here except that I eyeballed the calibration of the speedo and that it was optimistic by around 17%, which mean that my actual max speed was, in genuine mph, most likely around 90mph. I had hard times keeping up with my buddies on their old HDs, which I found quite surprising but didn’t sweat it too much back then because before anything else I was happy to finally ride the girl.
    Time and rides have passed, and I always had more urgent / important things to do than putting my nose into this low performance thing, until a couple of weeks ago. I had a laid back ride with plenty of open roads, and installed an app tracking various data such as distance, average speed, etc…but more importantly max speed. I also kept an eye on the revs, I got a Motogadget speedo that allows to navigate between speed and RPMs so I switched to tacho mode every time I could push the bike while safely keeping an eye on it. The results are not good…
    • My max speed have been 72mph (even lower than my first ride two years ago…). That’s not 5th gear WOT, but 5th gear 85% FOT. In 4th gear WOT the max I hit have been 55mph
    • My max RPM have been in the range of 2200-2300
    Needless to say, I’m puzzled…I know that it is not a sportbike, but between the performance parts and the dropped weight, this thing should fly twice as fast as it does currently. I’m robbed of half the RPM and pretty much half the HPs I should get from this engine.

    What I have planned so far to address the situation are:
    1. Checking the ignition. The settings might have been messed up by the dudes at the workshop when they worked on the bike, but that being said, the most conservative map of the DYNA 3000 limit the revs at 4250, so I’m not overly optimistic about the Dyna being the issue
    2. Bringing to bike to a garage to:
    • Clean the petcock filter, fuel filter, carb, to eliminate a potential fuel flow restriction due to particles accumulated in any of all of the above
    • Check for air leaks at the manifold and exhausts levels
    • Check the plugs for lean / rich mixture
    That being said, the bike "runs" fine... What I mean is that it starts in the blink of an eye, doesn't backfire, doesn't miss or stutter, doesn't stall, etc...Besides being stuck at 1/2 the RPM and speed it should it, everything is fine

    Any thoughts?

  • #2
    Just curious what are your timing settings on your dyna 3000? I'm not sure what part of your post suggest poor performance. You say it runs fine and over 100mph indicated speed. I would change the dyna settings to at least 5000 rpm and make sure it is set on the "B" setting for the timing with HC pistons. Also when you installed the HSR carb did you reinstall the TPS?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by davej View Post
      Just curious what are your timing settings on your dyna 3000? I'm not sure what part of your post suggest poor performance. You say it runs fine and over 100mph indicated speed. I would change the dyna settings to at least 5000 rpm and make sure it is set on the "B" setting for the timing with HC pistons. Also when you installed the HSR carb did you reinstall the TPS?
      The max speed I've ever hit has been at best 90mph two years ago right after finishing the build. In the ride I did two weeks ago, I didn't break 72mph. I also seem to be unable to reach a level of RPM higher than 2200-2300.
      I don't know the current setting of the dyna, which is why it is at the top of my check list. I haven't changed them so I assume that they are still identical to the settings back when I bought the bike, but the dudes at the workshop might have tinkered with it. To be honest, I don't even remember them, the last time I saw the dyna was more than 2yrs ago.

      No, I haven't reinstalled the TPS on the HSR, it needs to be modded to receive the stock TPS. But without the TPS plugged, the dyna will keep the setting at WOT at all all time, so if there's any loss of perf it is in the low end range and my issues are in the high end. It also seems that the loss of torque at low end is negligible and that the bigger carb make up for most of it, at least that's what S&S Customs states.

      Comment


      • #4
        A bone stock Roadstar will go 110 - 112. You've got so many modifications that something isn't right....I would check to see if you have the stock front pulley OR if the previous owner put on a 31T pulley...that will reduce top end a bit. I am thinking your motor combo...hsr 42 carb...being pumpless...and dyn settings are not "working well" together. Unfortunate side effect of getting a bike with so many modifications that you didn't do....your bike with stock front pulley all stripped down should run 120 mph (genuine gps verified) not 90. I'm thinking you may be running out of fuel at full throttle/top speed given that your pumpless with cam/heads etc....

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lug Nut View Post
          A bone stock Roadstar will go 110 - 112. You've got so many modifications that something isn't right....I would check to see if you have the stock front pulley OR if the previous owner put on a 31T pulley...that will reduce top end a bit. I am thinking your motor combo...hsr 42 carb...being pumpless...and dyn settings are not "working well" together. Unfortunate side effect of getting a bike with so many modifications that you didn't do....your bike with stock front pulley all stripped down should run 120 mph (genuine gps verified) not 90. I'm thinking you may be running out of fuel at full throttle/top speed given that your pumpless with cam/heads etc....
          My thoughts exactly...And no, no 31T pulley.

          When I built the bike, I sealed the tank with Redkote. Not for leaks, but to prevent rust, between the humidity here and the general poor quality of Thai fuel, steel tanks tend to rust. I put a lot of efforts into doing it properly, but unfortunately the dude who painted the tank did an absolute shit job. Among other things, he didn't mask the filler neck before spraying the primer. It makes me think that there might be a fair amount of primer particles, along with bits of Redkote lifted off the tank by the said primer, clogging the petcock and fuel filters and restricting the fuel flow. It might be the culprit and would explain the drop of perf over the couple of years, but that's still a lot of power loss for just a restricted fuel flow. I would assume that a fuel restriction drastic enough to cut the HPs by almost 40% would also come with symptoms such as backfiring, stalling, misfiring, etc...

          Comment


          • #6
            What are the needle clip settings and needle size? 96,97,98??? The HSR carb is a little different to set up than the stock CV40 as it has choices of needle diameter that will make a difference in how much fuel will flow in all ranges including WOT.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by davej View Post
              What are the needle clip settings and needle size? 96,97,98??? The HSR carb is a little different to set up than the stock CV40 as it has choices of needle diameter that will make a difference in how much fuel will flow in all ranges including WOT.
              That's another thing that I don't know...It comes from SS Custom Cycles and is supposed to come with a RS specific jet kit but I got no clue regarding the needle size

              Comment


              • #8
                You need to find out all the info settings on the carb and Dyna 3000. without it all you are doing is guessing at and guessing will never get you anywhere without actually getting some facts to make an educated guess. Also what about the TPS? has it been installed on the HSR carb or not. It does control timing even with the Dyna 3000. You do realize that your mods won't necessarily get you a higher top end than a stock engine, it will just get you there quicker.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by davej View Post
                  You need to find out all the info settings on the carb and Dyna 3000. without it all you are doing is guessing at and guessing will never get you anywhere without actually getting some facts to make an educated guess. Also what about the TPS? has it been installed on the HSR carb or not. It does control timing even with the Dyna 3000. You do realize that your mods won't necessarily get you a higher top end than a stock engine, it will just get you there quicker.
                  Yes, I do realize that I won't get a higher top end, but getting something at the same level than stock would be nice . Regarding the TPS, see my post #3 above

                  Comment


                  • davej
                    davej commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I guess I missed the TPS info when I quickly read thru the above post.

                • #10
                  All things being equal...if he went from 58 stock) hp to the tire to about 80hp to the tire he should gain some top end, right??

                  Comment


                  • davej
                    davej commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Nothing that will make much difference if any. . But he should get there pretty fast. At the same time he definitely shouldn't have lost anything

                • #11
                  I think you are gonna find your issue in the needle size or clip setting. I think I wouldn't play too much with the guessing without changing anything thing. You can easily access the main jet by removing the big nut on the bottom of the float bowl, the main jet is right under it note the size. then I would pull the needle note the size 96,97,98 and the clip setting. Then I would move the clip down 1 groove regardless of where it currently is and not it's new location. If that fixes it you are either done messing with it or you can play with the needle size to fine tune it in all riding ranges but that is easier said than done without the aid of a dyno or AFR meter.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by davej View Post
                    I think you are gonna find your issue in the needle size or clip setting. I think I wouldn't play too much with the guessing without changing anything thing. You can easily access the main jet by removing the big nut on the bottom of the float bowl, the main jet is right under it note the size. then I would pull the needle note the size 96,97,98 and the clip setting. Then I would move the clip down 1 groove regardless of where it currently is and not it's new location. If that fixes it you are either done messing with it or you can play with the needle size to fine tune it in all riding ranges but that is easier said than done without the aid of a dyno or AFR meter.
                    Thanks mate, that's exactly the kind of info I'm looking for.
                    I'll check the Dyna setting first just to make sure that the switches are not all over the place, then I'll clean the petcock, filter and carb first to get started on a steady slate. Then I'll work my way up but yeah, I foresee some hard times, there is very few Dynos around here and they are whether antics or at dealers who won't tune anything else that their bikes (=HDs).

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Probly a dumb question but is your tach set up for dual plug ignition? Maybe you are hitting the rev limiter but only reading half your rpm signal?

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Originally posted by daveto View Post
                        Probly a dumb question but is your tach set up for dual plug ignition? Maybe you are hitting the rev limiter but only reading half your rpm signal?
                        Not a dumb question but no, if I were reading half the RPM I would be at 1700-1800 RPM at idle, I don't even think you can max the carb idle that high

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Your Dyna settings should be either 32B or 34B your choice. The "B" settings are for engines with HC pistons, Set the RPM limit to 5000. Also if you cut a hole in the plastic battery box right where the dip switches on the dyna 3000 are located you can get to them easier to make changes in the future by simply removing the battery.

                          Comment


                          • #16
                            Alright, so this morning I dug the Dyna and checked the settings. Interestingly, the switches were randomly turned on and off, I mean the sequence didn't match any map. I guess the dudes inadvertently messed with them, but anyway, I set the map to 32B.
                            I had a quick ride and it was a bit better, I could hit 3000 RPM in low gears, 2500-2600 in tops, and reached 75mph.

                            Then I tried to check the main jet and needle size, but I'll have to remove the carb for that and it's getting too dark to jump into a job of this length, I'll crack it later this week.

                            Comment


                            • #17
                              You don't need to remove the carb to check jet size and needle, On an hsr carb there is a big nut on the bottom of the float bowl, remove that nut and the main jet is under it and it unscrews with a screwdriver, You will have to take the tank off to remove the top cover on the carb to remove the needle. The Dyna is set to 5000 rpm and it stops increasing rpm at 3000??? Does it start breaking up or just stop increasing rpm and run smooth at 3000???

                              I don't know if you have a Dyna 3000 setting chart but here is how it should be set for 32B @5000 rpm

                              sw1 off
                              sw2 on
                              sw3 on
                              That sets the rpm limit to 5000

                              sw4 off
                              sw5 on
                              sw6 on
                              that sets it to 32B

                              I checked my notes for my settings with a Big Bore and HC pistons and mine is set at 30B I thought I was at 32B.. I was having a spark knock issue so I went with a little less advance and a colder spark plug to resolve my issue.

                              The following is for 30B either will work

                              SW4 off
                              sw5 on
                              sw6 off

                              Comment


                              • #18
                                Originally posted by davej View Post
                                You don't need to remove the carb to check jet size and needle, On an hsr carb there is a big nut on the bottom of the float bowl, remove that nut and the main jet is under it and it unscrews with a screwdriver, You will have to take the tank off to remove the top cover on the carb to remove the needle. The Dyna is set to 5000 rpm and it stops increasing rpm at 3000??? Does it start breaking up or just stop increasing rpm and run smooth at 3000???

                                I don't know if you have a Dyna 3000 setting chart but here is how it should be set for 32B @5000 rpm

                                sw1 off
                                sw2 on
                                sw3 on
                                That sets the rpm limit to 5000

                                sw4 off
                                sw5 on
                                sw6 on
                                that sets it to 32B

                                I checked my notes for my settings with a Big Bore and HC pistons and mine is set at 30B I thought I was at 32B.. I was having a spark knock issue so I went with a little less advance and a colder spark plug to resolve my issue.

                                The following is for 30B either will work

                                SW4 off
                                sw5 on
                                sw6 off
                                Dave, first of all thank you for your consistent and thorough help and input, they are highly appreciated.

                                Technically, you don't need to remove the carb to check the size and needle, but practically it is the best option. I removed the air filter because accessing the float with the filter on is a bit of a PITA. The nut at the bottom of the float is very tight and when I tried to remove it, without the air filter to clamp it in place, I was rotating the carb to the point where I was worried about torquing it off the manifold. Removing the tank is not as easy as stock, it's pretty tight in there with the sporty tank and the electrical tucked in the funnel, doable but I prefer to have someone around to give me a hand when I mess around with it.

                                Yes, I do have the Dyna 3000 setting charts.

                                It stops around 3000 RPM in low gears (1st to 3rd) and around 2500 in top gears (4th and 5th). It doesn't break up, it just stops increasing and runs fine.

                                That being said, I talked to the prior owner. He has another RS with the same engine mods except the L&D cams, and the main jet he uses is 167.5
                                I have dug up the Mikuni Kit box from my shed, it is delivered with 3 main jets, the two remaining are 165 and 170. So whether the three jets are 165, 167.5, 170 and in that case the jet in my carb is the 167.5 and it should run fine, or they are 160, 165 and 170, and in that case my carb got the 160 and I should probably move up to 165 or 170.
                                Needle size, it seems that the standard size delivered with the HSR42 is 97.

                                Comment


                                • #19
                                  I think you will find the issue in the main jet or needle setting. With a Big Bore and a HSR 45 carb I use a 170 main jet and could probably be OK with a 167.5. But I am also using a different size needle. Mine is tuned with the use of a real time wide band AFR meter so I was able to play with the afr numbers until I got it where I wanted it. I think with just a little digging you will find the problem. keep us informed of what you are finding.

                                  Comment


                                  • #20
                                    Finally managed to pull the main jet out, it is 167.5. Still haven't removed the needle though.

                                    Comment

                                    Latest Posts

                                    Collapse

                                    Topics Statistics Last Post
                                    Started by Lucky, 16 hours ago
                                    11 responses
                                    71 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Lucky
                                    by Lucky
                                     
                                    Started by BubbaKahuna, 1 week ago
                                    20 responses
                                    236 views
                                    2 likes
                                    Last Post midnitmike  
                                    Started by CarolinaTexan, 19 hours ago
                                    7 responses
                                    71 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Ahodge75  
                                    Started by Blackcloud12, 1 day ago
                                    10 responses
                                    74 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post davej
                                    by davej
                                     
                                    Started by Father Pobasturd, 05-24-2019, 02:51 PM
                                    743 responses
                                    8,717 views
                                    1 like
                                    Last Post MikeyC
                                    by MikeyC
                                     
                                    Started by Batty381, 1 week ago
                                    5 responses
                                    73 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Lug Nut
                                    by Lug Nut
                                     
                                    Started by 03Roadstar1600, 1 day ago
                                    16 responses
                                    248 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Lug Nut
                                    by Lug Nut
                                     
                                    Started by psychoal, 1 day ago
                                    18 responses
                                    123 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post psychoal  
                                    Started by J89k, 2 days ago
                                    7 responses
                                    126 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Danman1995  
                                    Started by expatelectric, 03-15-2018, 11:38 PM
                                    9 responses
                                    542 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Dogbone
                                    by Dogbone
                                     
                                    Started by jdhard0341, 1 week ago
                                    5 responses
                                    129 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Lucky
                                    by Lucky
                                     
                                    Started by BillinFL, 1 day ago
                                    13 responses
                                    43 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post BillinFL  
                                    Started by spideydesigns, 4 days ago
                                    28 responses
                                    255 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Jlb76
                                    by Jlb76
                                     
                                    Started by spideydesigns, 4 days ago
                                    19 responses
                                    103 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Shores
                                    by Shores
                                     
                                    Started by ChrisJ72, 1 day ago
                                    7 responses
                                    108 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post ChrisJ72  
                                    Started by Blackcloud12, 19 hours ago
                                    4 responses
                                    46 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Bikerron  
                                    Started by MattL73, 22 hours ago
                                    2 responses
                                    61 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post LDofDC
                                    by LDofDC
                                     
                                    Started by Herrindude, 2 days ago
                                    13 responses
                                    144 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Shores
                                    by Shores
                                     
                                    Started by 03Roadstar1600, 1 week ago
                                    14 responses
                                    244 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post Shores
                                    by Shores
                                     
                                    Started by Lucky, 2 weeks ago
                                    46 responses
                                    467 views
                                    0 likes
                                    Last Post davej
                                    by davej
                                     
                                    Working...
                                    X