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  • Sshows
    started a topic Roadstar won’t start.

    Roadstar won’t start.

    Hello everyone.
    I have been lurking for some time and decided to join.
    Here is a super long first post to get things started...
    i have recently taken over the care of my partners 2008 roadstar Silverado with less than 3000 miles. This poor bike has basically sat in our garage for 10 years with very little use. I regularly ride my own bike, but occasionally try to show The Yamaha some love. While doing routine maintenance on my sportster I fired up the roadstar and put proper air in the tires. I took it for a slow ride around the block to test the tires and see how it was running. It seemed ok, but slow to start. Afterwards I parked it and put it back on its battery tender. The battery is 18 months old. A couple of days later I decided to change out the calipers on my bike and had extra brake fluid left over. I know the rs had 10 year old brake fluid so I bled and refilled the brakes. I took it for a low speed ride around the block and parked it. It seemed hard to start and I figured it was a good time to replace the oil and either ride it or sell it. I rinsed it off before parking it with the battery tender. The next day I hit the parts store and got my oil, filter etc. I got everything ready to go and wanted to start the rs for a minute to warm the oil a bit for better drainage. The bike would not start.
    Bike is in neutral and neutral light is on. Clutch switch on handlebar seem to be working. Kickstand switch seems to be working and many attempts have been made with it up and down. Neutral switch seems to be working. Kill switch seems to be working and is in correct position.
    the bike will turn over but it will not fire.
    the speedo does it’s thing when the ignition is on and I can hear the fuel pump priming the injection.
    Here is what I have done so far.
    Removed the gas tank and dumped the old gas. I flushed the tank of sludge and a little rust granules with denatured alcohol. Added fresh gas.
    Tried to jumpstart it with my other battery.
    Checked the fuses under the side cover.
    Looked for any loose lines.
    I replaced the spark plugs with factory spec pre gapped just in case.
    Now my oil is starting to smell like gas. I guess from all of the failed attempts fuel is draining out of the cylinders into the crankcase? I have checked the coil and I am getting spark.
    Could the injectors be clogged to the point of failure?
    I’m out of ideas and would welcome any advice
    Thanks!

  • davej
    replied
    Originally posted by DomRI View Post
    Looks like the only shady thing in this pic, is the guy with the smirk! Def a shady character
    I know I'l quit beatin the horse now.

    Leave a comment:


  • DomRI
    replied
    Looks like the only shady thing in this pic, is the guy with the smirk! Def a shady character

    Leave a comment:


  • davej
    replied
    Lets get back to this pic for a minute. If the pushrod was laying where it is in the pic holding the exhaust rocker open, why didn't the exhaust pushrod fall out when the lifter went to low cam and the rocker stayed raised in a open valve position? it absolutely would have it certainly wouldn't have stayed suspended in air and in perfect alignment to reinsert itself back into the rocker socket when the lifter went back on the high cam. Just sayin Click image for larger version  Name:	image_5112.jpg Views:	1 Size:	3.8 KB ID:	32312

    Leave a comment:


  • davej
    replied
    See now that is where 1 of the problems are. I don't think you ever had low compression. The only way to cover up a bad diagnosis of low compression and to get paid for the time spent on the bad diagosis is to create a situation that would cause low compression. It would take an extra 15 minutes to remove a cover and the pushrod to get paid for likely a couple hrs of what would have been lost time.I would rather loose 15 minutes than a couple hrs. Believe what you want but too many coincidental happenings in their senario and all with nothing broken. I still say impossible to be true. After over 40 years of being a mechanic I know when I smell smoke. And that is the smoke they blew up ...well you know what smoke I'm talking about.Again as long as everyone is happy so am I.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sshows
    replied
    Originally posted by texasscott1 View Post
    This is definitely a first. Some don't think it could have happened but with a compression of 40 PSI before the valve covers were even removed what else could it have been. It seems improbable that a shop could think to move the pushrods from under the rockers and blame the no start on that. I can't see them finding the problem and fixing it then removing the valve covers to setup this picture. That's just not something a mechanic would think of doing.
    This is exactly how I feel about this.
    They could have told me any number of things other than this and it would have been believable. What would be the point of a story like this?
    The funny part of this whole deal is that i’m pretty sure the mechanic believes it is something I did and that I’m not being honest.
    We had considered selling the bike, but now i’m Inclined to ride the crap out of it just to see if I can replicate the problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • texasscott1
    replied
    This is definitely a first. Some don't think it could have happened but with a compression of 40 PSI before the valve covers were even removed what else could it have been. It seems improbable that a shop could think to move the pushrods from under the rockers and blame the no start on that. I can't see them finding the problem and fixing it then removing the valve covers to setup this picture. That's just not something a mechanic would think of doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • davej
    replied
    I wouldn't say anything can happen. I might say alot of things can happen with an engine but things like this would leave broken parts. As far as cover up it is more like covering time spent on a improper diagnosis. Ya can't feed the kids on bad diagnosis commission. Now if you read that only 1 pushrod fell out how does that account for both cylinders having only 40 psi compression? It don't. Now we are back to having a happy customer because he got his bike back and running regardless of what they fixed and a mechanic that got paid for having a sharp pencil and a devious dishonest mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • davej
    commented on 's reply
    Scott the lifters wouldn't have pumped back up from cranking without pushrods in them. And if for some odd reason they did pump up from cranking they would have just bled back down for the same reason they did the first time. Beside that they were jammed open remember. Even If they were just both coincidentally bled down at the same time there is no way for the rods to fall out. You know as well as I do that you can install a dry lifter right out of the box and there will be enough spring pressure on the pushrods with properly adjusted rockers to keep the rods from falling out. The springs would have had to be shattered and laying in little crumbs inside the bottom of the lifter body in order to be enough play for the rods to fall out. In that case they couldn't have miraculously fixed themselves to be in operating order now.

  • Duke
    replied
    I know that it would be odd that it could happen. I think, if I read it right, that it was just one push rod that came out of the rocker. If the lifter inner plunger was normally running at the upper half of its stroke, due to the push rod length / cylinder height / rocker arm settings / etc., say the lifter was setting on the nose of the cam ( lifter would be collapsed), then hitting the starter button and on that one cam rotation if the lifter plunger were stuck, this would lead to the intake push rod to have a lot of play. The RPMs of the cam are half that of the crank and at start up, crank rotation is slow. Being that the engine had poor service with the oil and setting for long periods of time could contribute to sticking lifters. I know that this is very unlikely, and it should have started on the one cylinder.

    All indications point to a wrong diagnosis from the shop, but I'm not 100% sure that they are trying to cover up something. I have my disbeliefs on that happening in the engine, but have seen strange things with engines.
    Anything can happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shores
    replied
    Some folks put doctors and then mechanics right under God. Those guys lied to you!

    Leave a comment:


  • texasscott1
    commented on 's reply
    If the lifters did collapse completely for some reason then all of the cranking - trying to start, compression checks etc. could have pumped them back up. With the intake valves staying closed the compression would have been very low, as it was. There would have been a slight amount of air drawn in due to the exhaust overlap which would have provided for a little compression.

    I'm not defending the shop but if the lifters bleed down that easily then it's likely to happen again. I'm curious to see if it does.

  • davej
    replied
    Originally posted by texasscott1 View Post
    Keep in mind that our engines always stop with all of the intake valves closed, at least mine does. It's still odd that that happened though. Curious to see if it ever happens again.
    So that means the lifters would be on the low cam and the next movement would be loading the lifter and intake valves. So in their theory of the pushrods fallling out the 1 time in life, that the rods fell out of both cylinders and the lifters mysteriously simultaneously stuck open(not broke open) and then fixed themselves without a pushrod in them to un-jam them then pump them back up. I'm sorry guys I'm not gonna believe it. EVER!!!! Ya'll can come up with whatever defense theory for the shop and mechanic that you want to come up with but there are too many coincidental things that would have had to happen all at once,and physically impossible especially without other damage.

    The only thing I will believe is that the bike owner got his bike back and is satisfied that it is running and the shop got paid for most of their labor to compensate for the time spent on a mis-diagnosis. Everyone is happy.

    Leave a comment:


  • texasscott1
    replied
    Keep in mind that our engines always stop with all of the intake valves closed, at least mine does. It's still odd that that happened though. Curious to see if it ever happens again.

    Leave a comment:


  • davej
    replied
    Originally posted by Duke View Post
    After thinking what was diagnosed on your bike, I crunched some numbers for the 1700s, and found that the difference in the cam flats to the nose of the cam is .2448". That's almost 1/4". If the lifter was stuck down, that would be enough for the pushrod to come out of the rocker pocket, if all of the conditions happen that way, and during start up.
    The only other way I can think of, if it was machined with a shallow push rod pocket. I doubt that this would be the case, but anything is possible.
    Keep in mind that the bike was running just fine the day before. Nothing out of the ordinary happened when he shut it off. So what they are saying is that in that nothing happened except the bike got shut off, the pushrods just fell out for whatever reason that is unknown. Lets say that the intake lifters stuck down simultaneously in both cylinders. Then the both pushrod fell out. Then both pushrods fell to the same spot in each cylinder without bending or damage holding open the exhaust valves on both cylinders,and again without any damage to anything when they fell out under force. But then the lifters miraculously fixed themselves because they were no longer stuck down and didn't have broken springs in them making them stick down in the first place. See where I'm going here?????

    Leave a comment:


  • fastjohnny
    commented on 's reply
    I'm happy for you that your experience with the mechanics at the dealer were good. I doubt that you (or any of us) will ever know what was actually the culprit. Maybe if you could entice the guy that worked on it into getting a cocktail sometime, get him drunk on his ass, and ask him some questions you might find out LOL just kidding

  • fastjohnny
    commented on 's reply
    I agree with you, Dave.....dealer's mechanics sometimes have a knack for that sort of thing. The sad part is unless the owner can watch every step that the mechanic takes it's literally impossible to know what actually took place. On the other hand I'm sure as a mechanic you have experienced the "therapeutic disassembly and reassembly" syndrome.....I have. It's mind boggling but sometimes upon disassembly and reassembly something just happens - may be divine intervention or possibly "other worldly intervention (aliens)".....

  • Duke
    replied
    After thinking what was diagnosed on your bike, I crunched some numbers for the 1700s, and found that the difference in the cam flats to the nose of the cam is .2448". That's almost 1/4". If the lifter was stuck down, that would be enough for the pushrod to come out of the rocker pocket, if all of the conditions happen that way, and during start up.
    The only other way I can think of, if it was machined with a shallow push rod pocket. I doubt that this would be the case, but anything is possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Duke
    commented on 's reply
    Thank you for letting us know what's been going on with your bike. I try to follow any problems with our bikes as this good information for all of us to learn from.

  • davej
    replied
    As long as you are happy that is all that counts but as I said you paid them for the labor of a mis diagnosis because what they claimed is virtually impossible to have happened.

    Leave a comment:

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