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Engine guys need your input: Working w/ maker of Rocker Lockers to make a R* version

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  • davej
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks Doc that might make things easier on the 1700's The 1600's has a blind hole. That is why we were working on the custom made bolt.

  • Doc_V
    replied
    This is the prototype for the 1700, it looks like there's a big difference between the 1600 and 1700.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Rocker Locker R* Prototype.jpg
Views:	311
Size:	2.59 MB
ID:	109948

    Leave a comment:


  • Doc_V
    commented on 's reply
    Through hole.

  • davej
    commented on 's reply
    Doc is the retainer bolt hole a thru hole or a threaded blind hole?

  • davej
    replied
    here is a pic of a 1700. it is a little different but still the same basic idea. The 1700 may have a thru hole instead of a blind hole. I bought this one to experiment with
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-04-Yam...gAAOSwlA9ehO7P

    Leave a comment:


  • Doc_V
    replied
    1700 rear cylinder rockers, shafts, and towers for reference:

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2020-09-04 at 1.09.53 PM.png Views:	0 Size:	1.89 MB ID:	109941

    New rocker shaft on right:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Rocker Shaft Old vs New.jpg Views:	0 Size:	594.2 KB ID:	109939

    Shaft movement wear marks:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Rocker Shaft Wear.JPG Views:	0 Size:	1.13 MB ID:	109940

    Witness marks:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Rocker Witness marks.png Views:	0 Size:	578.3 KB ID:	109942

    Leave a comment:


  • LUV4RS
    commented on 's reply
    You mentioned the previous owner of the 2000 Road star you are working on; I would assume he wasn’t a member of the RSC. I’ve seen you guys be so spot on with diagnosis. It’s reassuring to know that when you run into issues with your bike, there is somewhere to turn to. Cheers.

  • Doc_V
    replied
    Dave: I've thought about the shims, but after discovering this, I'm no longer sure it's the cause. I plan to try the Rocker Lockers first, and if the it's still too noisy, I'll look into the shims.

    Duke: The 1700 is a different design, and yes the shaft is hollow.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-10-01 at 3.05.27 PM.png
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Size:	104.2 KB
ID:	109925
    Last edited by Doc_V; 10-01-2020, 06:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doc_V
    replied
    Here's the content of our PM so Steve, the maker the Rocker Lockers, can get caught up, he should be joining us soon.

    Duke, davej, going forward, please post your responses here instead of in the PM. Thanks.
    • davej 5 days ago
      I googled them and see that they are a fairly common fix for the HD problem. If our noise is coming from the same thing I don't see a reason in the world to not try them. It isn't gonna hurt anything that I can see. There is no mechanical reason for that shaft to move or need for it to expand. As long as oil gets to the rockers and everything is lubed there shouldn't be an issue.
    • Duke 5 days ago
      Doc, I'm like Dave, it wouldn't hurt to try it out. I do wonder if there is a problem with the Road Star pin retainer design. There's is few ways to keep the rocker shaft from moving.
      I've been thinking about what you've posted, and to come up with a ideal and I do have one that might work. I'm needing to dig out one of my rocker arm sets to do my figures, so I'll leave at that until I can answer correctly.
      Remember the 1600's have a 1.9 rocker ratio, and the 1700's have 1.4 ratio. The 1600's rocker / pin has more stress on the pivot point
    • Doc_V 5 days ago
      Much thanks Duke, that's good to know, definitely keep us posted.
    • davej 5 days ago
      You should hear the ticking with the higher lift cam. I thought I would be able to quite it down with the adjustable pushrods and that don't work. Mine clacks more than it ever did before all the work. At first I thought i lost my touch, lol I checked & adjusted the pushrods over and over before I realized that, they were correct and is was just the way it is with the mods. If One of you 2 look into this and find that we have that same slop and the lockers take up the noise I will be fully onboard with trying them. Or if Duke comes up with another solution I'm listening.
    • davej 5 days ago
      Doc do you know what the size difference is between the HD lockers and what we need for the R*?
    • Doc_V 4 days ago
      I don't know the difference, but I'll ask. This is what Steve told me a while back: "The machining for these inserts are real tight in the 25/64 but fit fine, I do not want to retool for a better fit until we do more testing. They are designed for a 3/8 hole." ...I think he may have meant 23/64? I'm not good with SAE sizes, but he'd originally told me 23/64 in another email.
    • Doc_V 4 days ago
      Hey guys, I just heard back from Steve and he wants to join RSC to get in on the conversion. If it's alright with the two of you, I'd like to add this conversation to the thread so he can follow along. Let me know if that's alright. Thanks.
    • davej 4 days ago
      OK with me
    • davej 4 days ago
      If they are meant to fit a 3/8 hole they would be loose in a 25/64 hole so he must have meant 23/64ths. That could be backyard machined in a drill press with a file and sandpaper to evenly remove 1/64th. how about the ID of the insert? I'm not sure what size bolt is used on the R* vs HD
    • Duke 4 days ago
      Sure, no problem with me Doc
    • Duke 3 days ago
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14187.jpg Views:	1 Size:	58.8 KB ID:	109904
    • Duke 3 days ago
      Here's a thought that could work.
      If you notice the set screw location would twist the shaft, locking it against the stock bolt and cut-out. If done mirror image on each shaft, right and left, the shaft being twist locked would be in the direction of the highest stress force.
      I hope I'm confusing you guys.
    • davej 3 days ago
      That would probably work. I'm thinking about just ordering the rocker locker and see what is needed to use it without overthinking the idea. If it is just a little tight(1/64th) I was thinking that maybe just a simple slit in the side and it would now be like a split pin and would fit without any problem. i just wish I had an extra rokerplate to play with without taking my bike apart to tinker.lol
    • davej 3 days ago
    • davej 3 days ago
      I just ordered a set from Amazon. From the pic they look like gun brass. I wonder what caliber.lol Does that give you any ideas Duke?lol I should have them in a couple days and I will measure them and maybe we can compare them to a brass casing to see.
    • Duke 3 days ago
      Yes, it does give me ideas. Something I'm going to have to play with.
    • davej 3 days ago
      Duke my guess is that you have the rocker plate to play with it,is that correct?
    • Duke 3 days ago
      Yes, I have one.
    • Duke 3 days ago
      Another thought, is using a stepped bolt, where the threads are the same but the smooth part of the bolt would be a little larger in diameter. the bolt could be made form SAE size then tapped to M6x1.0 thread.
    • davej 3 days ago
      Duke if that guy told Doc the HD locker was made for a 3/8 and ours needed a 23/64th that converts to a 9.1mm so if you have a 9mm brass casing it might work.
    • Duke 3 days ago
      Let me get back with you after I dig out my spare rocker assembly. 9mm seems a little large to me.
    • Duke 2 days ago
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14196.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.40 MB ID:	109906Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14197.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.55 MB ID:	109907Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14198.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.97 MB ID:	109908

      The Road Star retaining bolt is .274" and shows wear marks on the pin part and shaft. When measuring the 5/16" bolt .3125" it looks like it fits perfect in the shaft cut out. A 3/8" sleeve would be way to big.
      If you were to use a sleeve, how would you remove it, if you ever want to pull the shaft?
    • davej 2 days ago
      to remove it you should be able to drive it out with a drift punch, They do say that in one of the video's I watched. that seems to be a lot of slop and 1 hell of a witness mark on the bolt. how big is the OD on the bolt hole?
    • davej 2 days ago
      Talking to a buddy that is also a mechanic said that he had a setup on an old 70's bike that just simply had a secondary tapped hole the went thru the plate and into the rocker shaft with a bolt,lock washer and was loctited. That is what kept the shaft from moving. Kinda like your set screw idea but just drilled/tapped all the way into the shaft
    • Duke 2 days ago
      I don't think you could use a drift punch because the bolt goes into a blind hole. The bolt hole diameter is .280". A person could use a 5/16" bolt by turning the threads down, tap to
      M6x1.0 metric thread, and drilling bolt hole just to the threads.
    • Duke 2 days ago
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    • Duke 2 days ago
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    • Duke 2 days ago
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    • davej 2 days ago
      A bolt like that would settle the whole thing. would have to be a grade 8 bolt I would think. Ahh I see now about the hole. The drift was the HD removal method and won't work for us. now will a 5/16 bolt turned down still have enough meat left to tap new m-6 threads?
    • davej 2 days ago
      or just tap the plate to a 5/16 and use a 5/16 bolt
    • Duke 2 days ago
      I know the shaft is hardened steel, and would be a pain to drill. What kind of a drill bit would you use? A carbide bit?
    • davej 2 days ago
      carbide or cobolt. what about my last question about just tapping the hole to a 5/16
    • Duke 2 days ago
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14202.jpg Views:	0 Size:	4.8 KB ID:	109912
      RS retainer bolt next to a 5/16" hex bolt. I don't think I'd want to tap the hole out to 5/16 as it looks like it would weaken the rocker mount a little to much.
    • Duke 2 days ago
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14203.jpg Views:	0 Size:	835.5 KB ID:	109913
    • Duke 2 days ago
      If I were to use a 5/16" bolt, I'd use a cap head bolt and turn down the threads to tap to M6x1.0.
      But looking at this, what do you think if a sleeve were to be a interference fit, slid over the stock RS bolt.
    • davej 2 days ago
      that's not gonna work. can we go to the top of the opposite end and drill down and tap for a set screw or bolt into the shaft? A set screw would require a dibit drilled into the shaft or a flat spot ground into the shaft to hold it.
    • davej 2 days ago
      You posted your last reply before I seen it. I was talking about the size of the 5/16 tapped
    • davej 2 days ago
      The 5/16 won't fit thru the bolt hole,or will it?
    • Duke 2 days ago
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14204.jpg Views:	0 Size:	877.0 KB ID:	109914
      I would have to find a thin sleeve, cut to the right lengh, heat the sleeve and freeze the bolt, then slide on.
    • davej 2 days ago
      I like the idea of a sleeve with the oem bolt
    • davej 2 days ago
      but will that fit thru the bolt hole?
    • Duke 2 days ago
      No, it would have to be drilled out to the sleeve od. Find the material might be fun?

      I'm thinking the the 1700s are different type shafts. Would you know if the 1700 has hollow shafts?
    • davej 2 days ago
      No I don't know. wasn't really paying attention when I last had it apart
    • davej 2 days ago
      Is there a oil galley that goes up thru the bolt boss ? I'm looking at a close up pic of a rocker plate on ebay and it almost looks like there is a galley on both ends that would oil the ends of the shaft.
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14205.jpg Views:	0 Size:	75.3 KB ID:	109915
    • davej 2 days ago
      Never mind that,it can't be a oil galley I just realized when i posted the pic to you that it is just a cooling fin under it.
    • davej 2 days ago
      I'm gonna go back to question about oil galleys or returns. The 1700 looks just a bit different on the bottom but still look like possible oil gally's but would have to look inside the bolt holes to see if they go thru to the bolt holes.
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    • Duke 2 days ago
      The oil that feeds the rocker arms comes from the push rods. The excess oil in the rocker cavity comes out along the fingers of the rocker arms.
      The pressurized oil from the oil lines just spray oil onto the intake valves springs, then most of that runs to the exhaust side to help cool that part of the head.
      So the oil lines going to the head, do not lube the rocker arms, it's just for cooling.
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14207.jpg Views:	0 Size:	1.54 MB ID:	109917
    • davej 2 days ago
      I looked at a lube chart in the manual after I posted that but it still looked like those areas were for more than structural integrity. So it appears that we are on the right track without any potential oiling issues. That is a good thing. I thought about asking someone like Smokescreens that has a small shop at home with a lathe if he could maybe modify a 5/16 bolt and rethread it for us.
    • Duke 2 days ago
      That would be cool.
      I’ve been checking it out really close, and feel that would be a easy cure for most of the RS owners.
      Another thing I noticed is the end play on the rockers I have shows to have a tight .006”, loose .005” clearance. I just made a couple shims at .003” that looks like it will work.
    • Duke 2 days ago
      Did you tell him it would require a M6x1.0 thread? I can get the actual length and it should be with a cap screw head.
    • davej 2 days ago
      I haven't talked to him yet as I am out of town right now and will try to contact him when I get home on wed or thurs. If you have the exact size that would definitely help
    • davej 2 days ago
      I'm also thinking grade 8would be the proper choice
    • Duke 2 days ago
      I'm not sure what the hardness of the stock bolt is, but a good stainless steel would work, or I feel grade 5 should be sufficient enough, just not mild steel.
      It seems like the bolt being used now, is equivalent to grade 5, I might be wrong.
    • davej 1 day ago
      let me know when you get the length
    • Duke 1 day ago
      Here's what I have for measurements
    • Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14211.jpg Views:	0 Size:	948.4 KB ID:	109918
    • davej 1 day ago
      got it I will try to contact smokescreens when I get back in town. I have a good feeling on this one that it will work and work well.
    • Duke 1 day ago
      May this will help. I tripled checks the numbers and measurements.
      Click image for larger version  Name:	image_14213.jpg Views:	0 Size:	268.7 KB ID:	109919
    • davej 1 day ago
      that is perfect
    Last edited by Doc_V; 10-01-2020, 05:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Duke
    commented on 's reply
    I feel the same as you davej. I wonder if 1600's make more noise due to the rocker ratio?

  • davej
    replied
    In doing just a little bit of research online this seems to be a legitimate fix for the HD's These are sold under a couple different names brands. It is an under $20 fix for HD's. This may just be in my winter mods list.

    Leave a comment:


  • davej
    replied
    I have been watching this thread with interest in the outcome and longevity when used on the HD's. I personally don't think that eliminating that slop would do any harm at all. Not that there is any wear issues with that slop in there but a quieter upper end would be kinda nice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tropicalrs
    commented on 's reply
    Fortunately these bikes can overcome tinkeritus, without a vaccine, to run more interesting roads.

  • Horsehammerr
    commented on 's reply
    Completely Agree , " IF IT AIN"T BROKE DON"T FIX IT "

  • Bikerron
    replied
    Sounds like more tinkeritus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tropicalrs
    replied
    Is this the same rocker noise that people put larger shims in to stop?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lug Nut
    replied
    I have 3 Road Stars and have had a previous one. Perceived noise is part of ownership. I would never in a million years consider spending money, time, and effort in a rocker locker for our engines. The Japanese engineers that designed these particular 1600/1700 motors that are based on a simple decades old design did a great job. Extraordinarily long lasting low maintenance engine in a bike that can be bought used for $1500-3000 all day long. Chasing noises that don't cause any performance detriment or lack of longevity seems pointless in an air cooled loose tolerance engine. If I wanted a quiet bike I would have bought a different model simple as that. Trying to reinvent the wheel on a bike that has been out of production for 5 years doesn't make sense.

    Im working on a 2000 Road Star where the previous owner attempted to set the valves and couldn't do it properly. He ended up buying used stock set of heads and then had leaks because he used a cheap paper gasket instead of factory metal one. He used the wrong type of brake fluid and had Very weak brakes. He put some goop all over the intake manifold to seal the cracks. He installed a brand new battery to compensate for a bent spoon on the decompression solenoid and a dirty starter. Point is.... If he would have only done the proscribed logical maintenance properly using proper parts he would be riding his bike and would not have sold his bike he spent nearly $4000 on used to me for $800. I will adjust valves ONLY because he fiddled with it and I have it torn down to the point where I can do so already. He thought it made too much noise and dove down a rabbit hole and spent money and time and got nothing but frustration for it.

    I love customizing stuff but man... It can be a real pain in the ass and other than the traditional changes "we" make such as improved suspension, clutch, jetting, exhaust/intake, upgraded brake pads, synthetic fluids, thicker gauge starter/power wire, LED lights etc.... It can be "trouble-inducing".

    I wouldn't consider a rocker locker even if it was done completely free of charge.

    Leave a comment:


  • roadiemort
    replied
    Lol, our motors were designed with these tolerances to be high mileage motors, unfortunately the tradeoff is a noisy motor, common sense tells me if you lock those parts in tight the wear is going to take place in one spot only which will more than likely cause lower mileage failure of the part than if all parts were moving, just my opinion your mileage may vary.PS: Read up on some HD forums and all this did was reduce the tapping in the mid rpm range slightly not take it away.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Engine guys need your input: Working w/ maker of Rocker Lockers to make a R* version

    This is for motors with load dependent *excessive* top end ticking/knocking; beyond simple rocker adjustment or “normal” R* engine noises. Initially it only happens under heavy loads, like going up hill at speed, and gets worse over time until it happens all the time, even under light load on throttle and stops when you let off the throttle. At first I thought it was due to rocker arm end play, until I came across this video for Rocker Lockers:



    Since our motors have the same basic design, I tested my rocker arm, and sure enough it does the exact same thing:




    So I reached out the maker of Rocker Lockers. His name is Steve and he’s a real good guy who’s more than willing to help us out and come up with a version for the R*. I sent him a spare rocker tower I had and he came up with a prototype insert for it.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Rocker Locker R* Prototype.jpg
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ID:	109946Click image for larger versionName:	Rocker Shaft Notch.pngViews:	0Size:	473.2 KBID:	109165
    The only problem is, even though he drilled out the bolt hole two steps larger, from *11/32 to 23/64 to fit the insert, it still was not able to get to the notch in the shaft, leaving a very small amount of play:



    Ideally we wanted no play, so to take up the extra play would mean drilling out a third step up to an even larger diameter, the problem with that is, doing the same thing on Harleys has caused some towers to crack, so we don’t want to go that route; though he does say the R* tower has more materials and appears to be forged, rather than cast like the Harley towers. [Any thoughts on that?]

    He said some people have tried using LocTite, in addition to the Rocker Locker, but the LocTite does tend to wear out over time, so he’s not comfortable with that either. Another option some Harley guys have used, is to drill through the tower and shaft, then tap the hole and bolt it in place. But that requires too much effort and isn’t really a do it yourself solution, and it’s also prone to cracking. So scratch that idea.

    I told him, ideally, it should be a solution that anyone of us could do in our driveway, without complicated tools. It’s what initially attracted me to the idea of the Rocker Lockers; all you need is a handheld electric drill. As it is, he said with the two step drilling, ideally it should be done on a drill press, to insure the holes are perfectly straight, but it could be done by hand. I figured I could find a local machine shop if I want to play it safe.

    So that’s where we are. Steve asked me to post about it here and see of any of you have come up with a better solution. If not, at this point, I’m willing to try out his current R* version, with the minimal play in the hope that it’s quiet enough. [It’s got to be better than it is now.] The only thing is, it means permanently altering my rocker tower, which leads to another issue…

    Last year I actually scored a hell of a deal on a brand new rear cylinder tower $35, which definitely helped quiet things down, but my front cylinder is still very noisy. So a couple months back I decided to bite the bullet and ordered a new front tower for $240. As it turned out, there were none left in the US, so it had to be shipped from Japan; the only problem was, it made just as much noise as my old one, so I returned it. That itself wouldn’t be an issue, accept it was the last one in Japan too. So that’s it folks; there are no new rocker towers available for the R* 1700. None. [Unless you get lucky and find one hiding on a shelf or are interested in one with noisy rocker shaft play] I tell you, those Rocker Lockers are looking more and more attractive by the moment, which is why we really want to come up with something that works.

    Sow what say you? Has anyone come up with a better solution or have any better ideas?

    *I asked him about using metric sizes, but he said it would require him to retool to make the inserts, so I guess SAE holes aren’t the end of the world.
    Last edited by Doc_V; 10-01-2020, 09:32 PM.

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