Engine guys need your input: Working w/ maker of Rocker Lockers to make a R* version

[Harley_Cruiser]

I've been ask for measurement on the bolt from docs rocker assembly. It is .300 x 1.75 shaft x 1 inch thread 2.75 over all approximate but pretty close, I can not find my good caliper. Those are in inches.

[Duke]

Thank you Harley_Cruiser.
I see what you are saying and appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

[Duke]

Thank you guys, I'll keep this in mind. Both of my 1600's have been fairly quiet on the top end, just wanting to keep things on the tight side, and help out with our bikes.
I've added the .0025" SS shim to the non loaded sides, not because it's making any noise, "a little if any", but to reduce any side movement. The rockers still move freely and the shaft is now solid.
Only running time will tell now.

[Doc_V]

For reference, the play on the brand new front cylinder rocker tower I returned, was .008 [0.20mm] on the exhaust side and .006 [0.15mm] on the intake.

[Harley_Cruiser]

Duke I did a bunch of test on end play by putting the HD rocker arm assembly in the freezer and heating it up in the oven to 350 degrees. The assembly is aluminum and the shaft is steel due to the coefficient of the expansion of different metals the aluminum expands a lot more than the expansion of the steel shaft in heat. So the endplay get tighter when cold, loose when hot. I set HD endplay at .003 and at FREEZER temperature that gap goes to about.001. In the OVEN at 350 the expansion grew to about .006 or so, it's been a while so do not quote me on those figures, I would have to look for my notes and that is not happening LOL.
So unless you are riding in -10 degrees F I would not worry, that is not happening for me.
What we have found was that shimming the endplay used to be a big thing for the shovelheads and the main problem was thin shims would wear and disintegrate and fall into the motor. What is advised is that if you shim the endplay that you put the shim on the non load side. That depends on if you have one two or four cams where the side load is and if the push rod is at an angle to the rocker arm pushing it sideways. Hope that makes since.
(If you have two cams the lobes are side by side and both are at a angle. single cam the two outside lobes are at a extreme angle to the rocker arms, four cam the push rods are pretty perpendicular so not a lot of side load.)
Harleys have a lot of endplay and we have found that shimming did not help on the majority of motors however I do like to do mine and any that I work on. We use .020 shims so that there is no danger of them wearing out and disintegrating into the motor, we do so by machining the towers for extra end play then shimming them.
However we only advise doing this after the rotation of the shaft is eliminated and there is still a top end noise.

[davej]

I know it's not apples to apples but here are some crankshaft endplay numbers from car manufacturers. If you look at the average end play .003 should be plenty. If you research camshaft end play the numbers are in the same range.

Engine	Crankshaft End Play Clearance (inches)
Small-block Chevy	0.003 - 0.011
Big-Block Chevy	0.006 - 0.010
GM LS Gen III / IV	0.0015- 0.0078
302-351W Ford	0.004 - 0.008
429 – 460 Ford	0.004 - 0.008
Ford Modular 5.0L	0.004 - 0.008
340 – 360 Mopar	0.002 - 0.007
440 Mopar	0.003 - 0.007
Mopar Gen III hemi	0.002 - 0.011

Ideal clearance would be mid-point between these minimum and maximum clearances.

[Duke]

My service manual does not show, or say anything about the side clearance for the rocker arm end play. The end play on my rocker arm was a tight .006" and a loose .005". I made some Stainless Steel washer shims that were .0025" and added them to the rocker arms which gave a clearance of .003" end play, and I'm hoping that it isn't to tight.

[Duke]

Stock lock bolt on the smooth area is .274 x 15/16" long. By making the smooth part area .293", it fits firmly into the shaft cutout. At least on the head I'm working on. I'll be doing the other head soon and if different, I will let you know.

[Duke]

This is the same for the 1600's. The oil feed on the 1600's only feeds 2 spirt holes that sprays oil onto the intake valve springs and does not feed the rockers and shaft.
Rocker arm and shaft oil is fed by the pushrods.

[Harley_Cruiser]

Going to answer my own question, it's 6mm so that is .236. I have ordered some stock from my distributor and will see what I can come up for the 1700.
With the blind hole you could still pull the insert out with a ezyout or just drill it out in the future if you had to.

[Harley_Cruiser]

Duke, do you have a dimension on the bolt size or anyone have that so that I can fab up something?

[davej]

Sounds good. Thanks

[Duke]

No, I had to drill the hole out to 19/64", (.29687"), which was just 1/64" larger then stock, drilling down to the top of the threads.

[davej]

Duke does that fit into the rocker plat hole without drilling it out?

[Duke]

This picture is of a shaft and lock bolt from my 1600 with approximately 28,000 miles on it.

[Duke]

The 1600's have a solid shaft and the shaft is quite-a-bit smaller in diameter, .590". Yesterday while messing around in the garage, I tried a few things and came up pressing a brass tube onto the rocker lock bolt, then turning it down to .293". When screwing the lock bolt into place it was firmly locking the shaft and not getting any movement with the shaft.

[davej]

Steve the 5/16 bolt was for a 1600 roadstar. They are a little different than the one you are working on for a 1700 R*. They have a blind hole instead of a thru hole for the shaft retaining bolt and a 5/16 fits the notch in the rocker shaft pretty good according to what "Duke" has found working with a 1600 rocker plate.

[Harley_Cruiser]

Thanks Doc, a couple of notes since I had some time to read.
The rocker arms are fed oil up through the push rods, I'm not sure what that is that looks like an oil passage on the bottom of the plate is, when I get some time I will put some air to it and see where it leads.
A 5/16 bolt to make a shoulder bolt is not big enough to catch the notch in the shaft, the catch the notch fully it take the hole drilled out to 3/8"
Yes the inserts can be punched out with a drift however only need to be removed if you are replacing the shafts or the rockers.
The problem is usually on the exhaust rocker arm since it has the most heat, also the front cylinder is usually the worst, not sure why.
This was definitely causing a loud tick.
If the grins are in the opposite up and down instead of grinning then that is from excessive end play, common on HD's

[Doc_V]

Steve, welcome to the RoadStar Clinic, thanks for chiming in, and not to worry, there are plenty of Harley owners here.

Pauli466 You're absolutely correct, swapping/flipping the shaft on the 1700 is about as good as replacing them, since they only wear on the load side. I replaced all four shafts, before realized I could flip them, it was the first thing I tried. It did help some, but in my case, has gotten worse over time. I'm hoping the Rocker Lockers will do the trick.

[Duke]

Thank you for your help and response.