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Engine guys need your input: Working w/ maker of Rocker Lockers to make a R* version

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  • #21
    Most of noise isn't the shaft moving in the saddles it's from the rocker arm wearing into the inner shaft, replacing just the inner rocker shaft will quiet the top end down considerably, i even thought of moveing the rear rocker shafts to the front and vice versa so tops of the shafts where the rocker arms had wore into them would now be on the bottom and the bottom where there's no wear will be at the top making a tighter fit to the arm, i couldn't believe how much the rocker arm wore into the inner shafts on mine. Had to be over 10 thousandth's of an inch easy, seeing as the inner shaft isn't all that expensive new i might just change them out, i think ill at least do the front cylinder as that's where most of the noise is

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    • #22
      Steve, welcome to the RoadStar Clinic, thanks for chiming in, and not to worry, there are plenty of Harley owners here.

      Pauli466 You're absolutely correct, swapping/flipping the shaft on the 1700 is about as good as replacing them, since they only wear on the load side. I replaced all four shafts, before realized I could flip them, it was the first thing I tried. It did help some, but in my case, has gotten worse over time. I'm hoping the Rocker Lockers will do the trick.

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      • Pauli466
        Pauli466 commented
        Editing a comment
        You think if lock the new shafts in with locktite retaining compound 648 i still be able get it apart if needed.

    • #23
      Thanks Doc, a couple of notes since I had some time to read.
      The rocker arms are fed oil up through the push rods, I'm not sure what that is that looks like an oil passage on the bottom of the plate is, when I get some time I will put some air to it and see where it leads.
      A 5/16 bolt to make a shoulder bolt is not big enough to catch the notch in the shaft, the catch the notch fully it take the hole drilled out to 3/8"
      Yes the inserts can be punched out with a drift however only need to be removed if you are replacing the shafts or the rockers.
      The problem is usually on the exhaust rocker arm since it has the most heat, also the front cylinder is usually the worst, not sure why.
      This was definitely causing a loud tick.
      If the grins are in the opposite up and down instead of grinning then that is from excessive end play, common on HD's

      Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch?id=109906&d=1601586784.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.40 MB ID:	110192

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      • Duke
        Duke commented
        Editing a comment
        This picture is of a shaft and lock bolt from my 1600 with approximately 28,000 miles on it.

    • #24
      Steve the 5/16 bolt was for a 1600 roadstar. They are a little different than the one you are working on for a 1700 R*. They have a blind hole instead of a thru hole for the shaft retaining bolt and a 5/16 fits the notch in the rocker shaft pretty good according to what "Duke" has found working with a 1600 rocker plate.

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      • #25
        Click image for larger version  Name:	3552BE57-E68B-49C1-892F-799CBBEE44F6.jpeg Views:	2 Size:	2.83 MB ID:	110217 The 1600's have a solid shaft and the shaft is quite-a-bit smaller in diameter, .590". Yesterday while messing around in the garage, I tried a few things and came up pressing a brass tube onto the rocker lock bolt, then turning it down to .293". When screwing the lock bolt into place it was firmly locking the shaft and not getting any movement with the shaft.

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        • Harley_Cruiser
          Harley_Cruiser commented
          Editing a comment
          Duke, do you have a dimension on the bolt size or anyone have that so that I can fab up something?

        • Harley_Cruiser
          Harley_Cruiser commented
          Editing a comment
          Going to answer my own question, it's 6mm so that is .236. I have ordered some stock from my distributor and will see what I can come up for the 1700.
          With the blind hole you could still pull the insert out with a ezyout or just drill it out in the future if you had to.

        • Duke
          Duke commented
          Editing a comment
          Stock lock bolt on the smooth area is .274 x 15/16" long. By making the smooth part area .293", it fits firmly into the shaft cutout. At least on the head I'm working on. I'll be doing the other head soon and if different, I will let you know.

      • #26
        Duke does that fit into the rocker plat hole without drilling it out?

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        • #27
          No, I had to drill the hole out to 19/64", (.29687"), which was just 1/64" larger then stock, drilling down to the top of the threads.

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          • #28
            Sounds good. Thanks

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            • #29
              My service manual does not show, or say anything about the side clearance for the rocker arm end play. The end play on my rocker arm was a tight .006" and a loose .005". I made some Stainless Steel washer shims that were .0025" and added them to the rocker arms which gave a clearance of .003" end play, and I'm hoping that it isn't to tight.

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              • Harley_Cruiser
                Harley_Cruiser commented
                Editing a comment
                Duke I did a bunch of test on end play by putting the HD rocker arm assembly in the freezer and heating it up in the oven to 350 degrees. The assembly is aluminum and the shaft is steel due to the coefficient of the expansion of different metals the aluminum expands a lot more than the expansion of the steel shaft in heat. So the endplay get tighter when cold, loose when hot. I set HD endplay at .003 and at FREEZER temperature that gap goes to about.001. In the OVEN at 350 the expansion grew to about .006 or so, it's been a while so do not quote me on those figures, I would have to look for my notes and that is not happening LOL.
                So unless you are riding in -10 degrees F I would not worry, that is not happening for me.
                What we have found was that shimming the endplay used to be a big thing for the shovelheads and the main problem was thin shims would wear and disintegrate and fall into the motor. What is advised is that if you shim the endplay that you put the shim on the non load side. That depends on if you have one two or four cams where the side load is and if the push rod is at an angle to the rocker arm pushing it sideways. Hope that makes since.
                (If you have two cams the lobes are side by side and both are at a angle. single cam the two outside lobes are at a extreme angle to the rocker arms, four cam the push rods are pretty perpendicular so not a lot of side load.)
                Harleys have a lot of endplay and we have found that shimming did not help on the majority of motors however I do like to do mine and any that I work on. We use .020 shims so that there is no danger of them wearing out and disintegrating into the motor, we do so by machining the towers for extra end play then shimming them.
                However we only advise doing this after the rotation of the shaft is eliminated and there is still a top end noise.

              • Duke
                Duke commented
                Editing a comment
                Thank you Harley_Cruiser.
                I see what you are saying and appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

            • #30
              I know it's not apples to apples but here are some crankshaft endplay numbers from car manufacturers. If you look at the average end play .003 should be plenty. If you research camshaft end play the numbers are in the same range.
              Engine Crankshaft End Play

              Clearance (inches)
              Small-block Chevy 0.003 - 0.011
              Big-Block Chevy 0.006 - 0.010
              GM LS Gen III / IV 0.0015- 0.0078
              302-351W Ford 0.004 - 0.008
              429 – 460 Ford 0.004 - 0.008
              Ford Modular 5.0L 0.004 - 0.008
              340 – 360 Mopar 0.002 - 0.007
              440 Mopar 0.003 - 0.007
              Mopar Gen III hemi 0.002 - 0.011
              Ideal clearance would be mid-point between these minimum and maximum clearances.

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              • #31
                For reference, the play on the brand new front cylinder rocker tower I returned, was .008 [0.20mm] on the exhaust side and .006 [0.15mm] on the intake.

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                • #32
                  Thank you guys, I'll keep this in mind. Both of my 1600's have been fairly quiet on the top end, just wanting to keep things on the tight side, and help out with our bikes.
                  I've added the .0025" SS shim to the non loaded sides, not because it's making any noise, "a little if any", but to reduce any side movement. The rockers still move freely and the shaft is now solid.
                  Only running time will tell now.

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                  • #33
                    I've been ask for measurement on the bolt from docs rocker assembly. It is .300 x 1.75 shaft x 1 inch thread 2.75 over all approximate but pretty close, I can not find my good caliper. Those are in inches.

                    Comment


                    • davej
                      davej commented
                      Editing a comment
                      could you convert that to mm bolt size and thread pitch.

                  • #34
                    I have two rocker boxes off 2006 pm me and they're yours just pay shipping. The rocker arms and inner shafts included, believe it or not the black and silver 1700s use different boxes these are black my engine is silver, they bolt up but they are different especially where the pushrod tube fits in. Part # 5VN 11141-00 BLACK MOTOR #5VN 11141-10 SILVER MOTOR , both numbers 2006 the fin edges are ground flat on black motors and rounded on silver ones, they're a completely different casting shape wise too

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                    • Doc_V
                      Doc_V commented
                      Editing a comment
                      PM sent.

                  • #35

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                    • #36
                      I have come up with what I think is a simple and adequate fix for the 1700's. Although if the rocker lockers that DocV has posted about become available they might be a little easier fix for someone that would rather install a insert instead of drilling and tapping into the rocker shaft that is my fix. Duke is working on the fix for the 1600's we come up with a step bolt idea for the 1600's due to the shaft lock bolt is going into a blind hole on the 1600's instead of a thru hole like on the 1700's. Here is the simple fix I come up with. The pic is done on an extra rocker assembly I have and not not done on my bike yet. The bolt would be installed on both ends of the rocker shaft and a grade 5 minimum bolt used with red loctite. The bolt in the pic is a 10-24 size bolt.

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                      • #37
                        I'm waiting on a drill press I ordered. I'm hoping to get to the inserts next weekend.

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                        • #38
                          Well I had a chance to do a rocker mod to my bike today. Between DocV, Duke and myself we have come up with a few different ways to accomplish locking the rocker shaft to the rocker tower to stop movement. I took a simple approach by just drilling the tower and shaft then tapping the hole and bolting it down. Well it worked. My bike is now quiet, no more of the excessive upper end ticking. When I took it apart it even seemed to be tight and not much if any movement of the rocker shaft when trying to move by hand. I am very happy with the results of this simple mod. Click image for larger version

Name:	Inkedrocker bolt mod_LI.jpg
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                          • Pauli466
                            Pauli466 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Is that bolt just going through one side of the pipe or all the way through and into the aluminum base, is it 6 mm

                          • Shores
                            Shores commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Great job Dave! Do you think the threaded hole in the tube will eventually egg out? How did you prevent tap debris from entering the tube or the engine? Did you have to readjust the valves afterward?

                          • davej
                            davej commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Steve, I didn't take the assembly off so no readjustment needed. Even if I had taken it off an adjustment wouldn't be needed. I don't think there will be any issues with egging out, it is locked tight so there is no movement to allow for egging out and the shaft is very hard steel. I stuffed a rag around the pushrod tube access and used a shop vac next to the drilling that sucked up the shavings as they were made. no mess or shavings whatsoever. I wore out a new cobalt drill bit on 4 holes though.lol

                        • #39
                          Pauli466, Just thru the tower and 1 side of the shaft with a grade 5, 10-24 bolt and red loctite

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                          • Pauli466
                            Pauli466 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Thanks, ill make a decision during winter to lock my new shafts in like you did or use locktite 648 what scares me is there can't be much tread in the shaft for that bolt to hold onto, but then there isn't much stress on it either

                          • davej
                            davej commented
                            Editing a comment
                            There are a few threads locking it and it sticks thru a little with a 10-24x1/2. Keep in mind that it also has the factory thru bolt locking the shaft and as long as the shaft has no motion the stress is almost non existent. If you remove the plate you could drill/tap both ends if you were concerned about stress. I think it will be OK the way it is. I also tapped the tower and the shaft to lock them together.

                        • #40
                          Nice Dave; I'm encouraged by your results. ...After a short learning curve, and getting the right hardware together, I got my first set of Rocker Lockers installed today. ...Stay tuned.

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_1683.jpg Views:	2 Size:	1.32 MB ID:	111561

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