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ZDDP,, what the heck is it?

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  • ZDDP,, what the heck is it?

    I keep seeing posts that refer to this magical substance in oil. Where is this level found on bottles of oil in the store? What the heck am I supposed to use if this is something I can't find out? There are so many different kinds of oil to use and so many here have so different opinions as to what to use, how am I going to find out if what I am using is going help or hurt my bike? I see all kinds of little friggin letters on the back of the bottles/cans/containers of oil that claims it meets or exceeds API, AFC, ABCDEFG, ect. Which ones of these are supposed to be good for these engines? I'm in no way a rich guy and my money has to stretch really far and 10.00 a quart is out of my league. Synthetics sound really good but hey, it's expensive. So I guess the repeatedly asked question would be, what oil can I use without having to go to a college science course?
    "Do or do not, there is no try."


  • #2
    Yamalube 10 -40 is what the engineers that designed the bike recommend. I have used Mobil 1 vtwin, Amsoil vtwin be cause I know the ZDDP levels exceed the requirements for flat tappet cam protection, that said you still need to change the oil. lol.

    Comment


    • #3

      Comment


      • #4
        Okay, I understand what it is but it is not listed as ZDDP on the cans of oil itself. what of the alphabet soup letters on the cans includes this spec? Or where can you go to find a list of oil that has this stuff in it?
        "Do or do not, there is no try."

        Comment


        • #5
          Here you go. Scroll down for ZDDP. Some folks have good luck with Rotella. Many use Mobile 1 and Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oil. Just make sure you use motorcycle specific oil since we have a wet clutch. No car oil.

          http://www.oil-tech.com/amsoil-pdf-f...comparison.pdf

          “The West is the Best" - Jim Morrison

          Comment


          • Spydr
            Spydr commented
            Editing a comment
            Guess the Rotella is for those Diesel bikes?

        • #6
          Shores, would you recommend Rottela T4 15W40 for our engines?

          Comment


          • #7
            ZDDP is a zinc additive that used to be commonly found in motor oil. Old style engines with flat tappet cams need it so that the lobes do not mar during their usual duty cycles. Older engines require the stuff.

            I have a bored and stroked 401 underneath the hood of my CJ7 and it requires a zinc additive in the oil. Along with 10 QTs of full synthetic 50W haha. Damn those big 6.6 litre V-8's

            Lucas makes a great one.

            Newer style motors that do not use flat tappet cams do not require the extra zinc. Therefore due to government regulation it has been largely removed for a cleaner oil that is less toxic when it gets cycled out of the motor ala an oil change.

            The reason Diesel engines require a large amount of ZDDP is due to their use of flat tappet cams and also because they are largely, if not all mechanical and thusly have more moving parts the engine oil lubricates. Shell Rotella oil is largely produced for DIESEL motors and that's why it boasts about its ZDDP components.

            Best oil I have found is Mobile 1 20W-50 V-twin. That is what I run in my bike and many others do as well. It's the best that I have found. No reason to save a buck a QT on oil and not have your engine properly lubricated. The mobile 1 does have a small amount of ZDDP in it but you have to go and look at the wedsite to find that info, it's not on the bottle.

            "If you don't do it this year, You'll be one year older when you do!"

            Comment


            • roadiemort
              roadiemort commented
              Editing a comment
              The other reason they reduced or removed ZDDP from oil was that it was plugging up the catalytic convertors prematurely. (in warranty period lol)

          • #8
            https://www.bellperformance.com/blog...es-part-2-zddp
            "If you don't do it this year, You'll be one year older when you do!"

            Comment


            • #9
              At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all PIA... It's this ZDDP, a zinc and phosphorus compound that is specifically necessary to provide the adequate friction reduction between our lifters and cam lobes. Our engines require a minimum of 1200 ppm of the stuff. Modern auto engine oils pretty much cap their ZDDP content at 800 ppm, which is not enough for our engines. It was contaminating and ruining catalytic converters. Also, for auto engines, they commenced to add other friction modifiers that are totally incompatible with our wet clutches.

              The solution was to formulate bike specific oils having none of the new friction modifiers that could ruin our clutch, and met the JASO requirement you'll find on our oil jugs. The JASO number means the oil meets a Japanese wet clutch requirement without ruining them. The other part of the bike oil equation, is that they continued to keep the ZDDP levels at 1200 ppm or higher to meet the lubrication requirement of our cams and lifters.

              This seriously limits our choices in oils. Yamaha has their own 10w-40 for our bikes. Others also make 10w-40 and 20w-50's for our bikes. I'm up in the NE and ride in temps of between 45 and 95 degrees tops... 10w-40 works perfectly fine for me up here. Others, below the Mason-Dixon line, and riding in 100+ degree heat like the extra protection they'll get with the 20w-50.

              The matter of running Shell Rotella T4, T5 or T6 is this... right on the back of their jug, last I checked, it said it was JASO approved, so it would not be harmful to our clutches. Years ago, I learned straight from Shell that they also had at least 1200 ppm of ZDDP in Rotella as well. BUT, and this is HUGE everyone, that was before the later, and much more stringent emissions requirements went into place on diesels! Since then, I have heard, but I DO NOT KNOW, that Shell had reduced their levels of ZDDP in Rotella. This needs to be confirmed or denied by SHELL, before you go running an unknown quantity in your engine.

              I personally run the Amsoil 10w-40 for Jap bikes. It had objectively tested, using oil industry standardized laboratory tests, to be the best product as of that time... and Shell Rotella was no part of that test then.

              Do not be foolish... your oil is your engine's life's blood! If you can confirm for us here that Shell has said that their Rotella products still have at least 1200 ppm of ZDDP in their oil, even after the latest emission requirements had been placed on diesels, then go for it, if saving a few bucks is that important to you. But, since Rotella has not even been tested against other actual bike oils, and they have... and there were clear winners and losers among them, with the Amsoil and the Mobil 1 standing tall against all the competition at the time of that testing... why would you try to cheap out on your oil??? It doesn't make a lick of sense, friends! I'm just sayin'!!!

              Comment


              • #10
                Just saying.



                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by Shores View Post
                  Here you go. Scroll down for ZDDP. Some folks have good luck with Rotella. Many use Mobile 1 and Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oil. Just make sure you use motorcycle specific oil since we have a wet clutch. No car oil.

                  http://www.oil-tech.com/amsoil-pdf-f...comparison.pdf
                  I always have a problem with test like this when it has an oil company's name on the last page and low and behold their product is number 1 best on the list of oils to buy. IMO it is not an independent test even though it has a sig that says it is true.

                  Comment


                  • Questcap
                    Questcap commented
                    Editing a comment
                    dave, the white paper tests were performed by an independent lab, and, as I stated, employed only industry-wide, standardized tests... unless you actually, purposely, somehow fudge the test results, you're not gonna get the result you want. The only other way to get the result you're looking for... is to produce the best product, which has been their selling point since they started in the early 80's. I have no problem with who funds the research, if standardized testing is employed. It wasn't done in their own labs!

                • #12
                  Ok, from what I've read on different site, We require JASO MA/MA 2 oil for our engine.
                  This is what I got from http://rotella.shell.com about the T4 15W-40

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.JPG
Views:	1
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ID:	14096

                  So, am I correct in stating that this oil should be fine for our engines?
                  I'm not nickle and diming here, it's just that Mobil/Amsoil motorcycle oil is not easilly accessible in my neck of the woods.

                  Comment


                  • roadiemort
                    roadiemort commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I you read the above post you will know that it meets the wet clutch specs, the question is does it have enough ZDDP

                • #13
                  Roadie's right... as I had previously posted. It meets the JASO spec that says it won't harm our wet clutch, but nothing in the spec says we can count on there still being at least 1200 ppm of ZDDP since the latest emissions reduction regs went into place.

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    According to this site
                    http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html
                    It has
                    Phosphorus 1080 ppm
                    Zinc 1203 ppm

                    Comment


                    • roadiemort
                      roadiemort commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That is the astm D5185-13.5 standard and it is 5 years old now. this is the new one and is what we are saying, we don't know if they reduced the levels.https://www.astm.org/Standards/D5185.htm

                    • Questcap
                      Questcap commented
                      Editing a comment
                      If anything, we add just a bit more concern here... Makriluc's link is to oil purchased for testing on 3/30/17, one year ago, and the copyright on the bottom of the page is 2017. Roadie is saying that tested oil, one year ago, conformed to a previous standard, and that there is now a new standard in place... so, that the original question still exists... did Shell have to reformulate Rotella, and reduce the ZDDP level, in order to meet the latest standard. I DID hear that they did, but I have not yet been able to find a confirmation of that anywhere... I'm not willing to take the risk to find out! A few years back, Shell had an Answer Man site that you could refer to, and get answers to such questions. I remember reading of the high and adequate ZDDP level on that site some years back... I haven't seen it since.

                  • #15
                    The new standard is ASTM D5185- 18Click image for larger version  Name:	 Views:	1 Size:	61.6 KB ID:	14145

                    Comment


                    • #16
                      I have used Valvoline motorcycle oil for years now with no problems. I don't put that many miles on my bike in a year so I use conventional oil over synthetic and just change it every fall. I wasn't sure about how much ZDDP was in Valvoline motorcycle oil so here's what I found on Valvoline's website. http://sharena21.springcm.com/Public...0-ac162d889bd3

                      Here is FAQ about ZDDP, read this
                      "
                      What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?
                      http://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq

                      Comment


                      • roadiemort
                        roadiemort commented
                        Editing a comment
                        My question to Valvoline would be why is your zinc content measured in % when most others measure in PPM

                    • #17
                      0.12 % (.0012) is the same as 1200ppm (.0012)



                      Comment


                      • roadiemort
                        roadiemort commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks Ron.

                    • #18
                      I just got off the phone with shell Tech Support and the man told me Rotella T-4 15/40 is good for wet clutch and has 1272 PPM zinc and 1146 phosphorus

                      Comment


                      • #19
                        Originally posted by davej View Post
                        I just got off the phone with shell Tech Support and the man told me Rotella T-4 15/40 is good for wet clutch and has 1272 PPM zinc and 1146 phosphorus
                        Well that's super.
                        Thanks Dave.
                        I, also contacted them through FB, but still no response.

                        Comment


                        • #20
                          Originally posted by Makriluc View Post

                          Well that's super.
                          Thanks Dave.
                          I, also contacted them through FB, but still no response.
                          Gotta call them. I had an answer in less than 2 minutes. At first he threw out a generic 1200number then I told him I wanted a specific number and why I wanted an exact number so he looked it up real quick and gave me the 1272PPM and 1146 numbers.

                          Comment


                          • Questcap
                            Questcap commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Now, that's cool! I'm an Amsoil user... but, now, we've got a definitive answer for RonZee, and if someone wants to use Rotella, they can say that Shell said it currently meets the JASO requirement AND contains adequate ZDDP, too! Thanks, davej, you're one of the reasons why this Clinic site is so darned GOOD!!!

                          • roadiemort
                            roadiemort commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Thanks Dave, good to know.

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