Have fuel and spark but no start

[Caveman96]

Hey everyone. New here! So I have an 03 1600. Been sitting a few months putting money up to fix issues with it, and recently had the carb cleaned and built. I’m getting great spark and good fuel flow. But it just will not start. I’ve sprayed a small amount of starting fluid down the carb while spinning and it won’t doing any different. Any tips where to look now? Vacuum leaks? Thanks

[davej]

where did you check for spark? At the spark plug wires or did you pull the plugs to see if they were sparking? Just a quick thought on the little info given is that the plugs are wet with fuel and need to be cleaned and dried. The only other thought is that if it is spinning over but real slow the battery may need charged to provide enough voltage to spin the motor and provide proper spark at the plugs inside the combustion chamber at the same time.

[Caveman96]

Yes I checked at the plugs, pulled them out and put them back in the boot, put it against the cylinder and turned it over. All 4 looked great. There was some gas on them. People are saying it’s spinning slow, but it’s a new battery. Just bought it 2 hours before I started working on getting it started. It sounds like it’s turning over fine, honestly. I know compression is good, as I’m turning over I can hear and feel it at the tail pipes.

[Mr. Miyagi]

frpm Texarkana, in the Arklatex

[Brad_G]

from Solon, IA

How long has it sat since it last was running well? I presume you checked the condition of the intake when removing and replacing the carb (my '03 that had been sitting was badly cracked)? All the connectors for the TPS and such got re-connected when putting it back together? Just going over some of the basic things you'd touch when doing this.

[Caveman96]

The intake (could) be replaced. It’s a little weathered but not bad enough to mess with air flow. Then again, I don’t know. It could be a big issue. It’s been sitting quite a while, honestly, 5 months give it take and ran only a handful of times within the 5 months.

[davej]

Dry the plugs use the choke and charge the battery even though it is new and I think it will all be OK

[Caveman96]

I think a lot of it could be that these bikes don’t really like to sit.(from what I’ve heard they don’t. Very meticulous bikes) and just need to get it fired up and clean the system out and hopefully be back on the road.

[Shores]

Once you get it running, run a heavy dose of seafoam or techron plus concentrate through a couple tanks of gas.

[Tcontrol]

If you have spark and gave it a shot of starter fluid through the carb….
if it didnt even act like it was going to start…. Then i would be removing the rocker covers on each cylinder and confirming that the valves are opening/closing … the lifters and/or cams may have some issues….

simplified version… a motor requires three things…
spark
fuel
compression

you seem to have checked for two of the three thus far…

[Caveman96]

I did a test and pulled 2 of the 4 plugs and crunk it over, getting LOTS of air from the spark plug holes. Didn’t quite test compression, but seems as though compression is pretty good just by the feeling of all that air coming out.

[Chooch]

Make sure the spark plugs are connected to the proper coils and the coils are connected to the proper primary wires. You need fuel (correct fuel/air mixture), compression (high enough to support ignition), and spark (at the correct time).

[Tcontrol]

The removal of spark plugs and feeling air coming from the holes is a poor test…
case in point… intake valves are working somewhat… and the exhaust valves…?? You cannot make a determination of proper valve train operation based on your test…

a collapsed lifter or damaged cam will keep your bike from running… you check for spark… and see a good spark… (some members do not like that particular method)…
You sprayed a little starting fluid (ether) in the carb throat and tryed to start it… you never mentioned that the bike even fired/ spat/ popped or anything..

My suggestion to remove the rocker covers and visually inspect the pushrod tension, valve stem position (possible stuck valve) and cranking the engine to examine the valve train action is still the best method for checking for camshaft/lifter problems…. Feeling air coming from a spark plug hole is not a very good method to determine valve train issues…

[davej]

pulling the rocker covers is a bit much to see if thing are working when a simple compression test would show proper operation of things. pulling the rocker to see if things are moving don't tell you 1 thing without measuring how much lift you have on each rocker and trying to compare it with specs.
Nothing mechanical happened to the bike from sitting for 5 months. He started it a few times in that 5 months and he shouldn't have. He fuel fouled the plugs. In a post above he said the spark plugs were wet with fuel. A fuel fouled plug will never fire under compression. He just needs to either dry the plugs (all of them) with a torch or replace them. He should also spin the engine a few times with the plugs removed to expel any fuel that may be laying in the cylinder. If the plugs fuel foul again after drying or replacing I would be suspect of the carb rebuild that he spoke about. A mis-adjusted float can cause flooding issues that again will fuel foul plugs.This isn't rocket science or even that difficult of an issue to figure out. He just needs to do what has been suggested before moving on to other things that require taking the engine apart for a simple spring time no start.
He also said it was spinning slow. I don't care if it is a new battery or not it needs to be charged. Especially if it was a dry battery when he got it and he filled it with acid or the store he bought it from filled it.

[Caveman96]

A guy had told me yesterday that my valve(black cover piece inside the carb that the needles goes through) was moving too much while I was cranking it. He said that he’s conceded that the accelerator pump may have a vacuum leak, and I should pull apart and inspect it.

[davej]

That makes no sense. That guy has no clue what he is talking about if that was what he said. The acc pump don't have any vacuum going to or coming from it. It is simply a squirt of fuel from the brass tube in the mouth of the carb that squirts toward the floor of the carb when you twist the throttle. The slide that the needle goes thru has no effect on startup and does not move until vacuum exist from the engine running and twisting the throttle. The gap between the bottom of the slide and the bottom of the carb throat is what it is and is a rather large gap if that is what he was talking about

[Shores]

Caveman, you would be wise to quit taking your bike to mechanics or seeking their advice and instead listening to folks on this forum who have 20 plus years of experience working on the road star.

[Tcontrol]

Compression test will show leaking valves/rings/ bad intake valve lifter/cam…… not a bad exhaust lifter/cam… so rather than being a “know it all condescending prick”, Try to learn something from other mechanics….

IE:
A compression test with a bad exhaust lifter/cam may show a bit of a high pressure reading but a novice would likely disregard the high reading.. a bad exhaust lifter would most likely cause a puff of air to come out of the carb… (if it remained completely closed from a collapsed lifter or a severely damaged cam..) a slightly damaged cam or lifter that would still open the exhaust valve but without the proper duration and would not show on a compression test at all… that is why i suggested the visual inspection approach…

as far as inspecting valve train on a 2006 roadstar… hydraulic lifters and a good cam would be very easy to verify… excess vertical play on the pushrod is very easy to identify…. Just by comparison of intake pushrod and exhaust pushrod at both valves closed… thus a visual inspection would identify a collapsed lifter and/or a bad camshaft lobe…no intention of measuring valve lift… that is best measured by using a precision tool on the cam… not what is needed in this case…..

Can a lifter collapse from 5 months of storage… yes it can… you just have not personally experienced this….

The 1600 roadstar rocker cover has a metal gasket… usually doesnt need to be replaced when removing the rocker cover… does it take a little extra effort… yes it does… is it a lot more informative than a simple compression test?… obviously…!!!

OP had his carb rebuilt.. was it by somebody capable of performing a rebuild?…. I do not know…

OP also confirms spark by a visual test… is it a strong spark or weak spark?…. OP claims a strong spark… Some roadstar clinic members disagree with this approach… i am not one of them… i have experience in viewing spark intensity so that method works for me… it may not work for everybody…

He bought a new battery… is it a fully charged battery?…. I do not know… i typically charge a new battery before i use it…

Is the OP’s compression release solenoid working and properly adjusted … unknown… that will also cause a slow starter spin…

Has the OP put a voltmeter on the battery and cranked the engine with the spark plugs installed..? ….. If the battery voltage drops below 10.5 volts, the ECU will most likely not fire the plugs due to low voltage..




A quick test would be:

1. Replace the spark plugs
2. Shut off gas…
3. Hold the throttle wide open (do not twist a bunch of times and flood motor using accelerator pump)…
4. Three ‘short’ sprays of starting fluid in carb throat… hit the starter (make sure bike is in nuetral and the switch on handlebar is in run position)
5. Does it try to start or run?….anything indicating fire from plugs?

Then proceed with further troubleshooting as needed…


I replied to the post by the OP regarding air blowing out the spark plug holes as an indication of compression… the method is questionable at best. A visual inspection of the valve train is better indication of cams/lifters than the method OP has used… nothing more… nothing less…

Criticizing other mechanics troubleshooting methods doesnt accomplish anything…. Your way is not the only way…. My way is not the only way…. There are many different methods… mechanics learn by doing different things and learning what works best for them… so please start by



Not being a “know it all” condescending prick….!!!!

[davej]

Thank You for your Know it all condescending prick remarks. I have been a certified master mechanic in Auto and master certified in HD truck for over 40 years, Also Journeyman Equipment Repair Specialist and also ran a repair facility at Detroit Metro Airport with 17 mechanics under my supervision. So I do know a little bit about fixing shit. Pulling apart a rocker to simply look at movement of the rockers does nothing. Are you going to visually measure cam lift? He has a simple won't start in the spring issue and you are trying to get him to bypass simple shit and going right to major work. You apparently didn't read the part about "WET" sparkplugs and starting a few times over the off riding season. It apparently started and ran fine when parked. Shit in a cam and valvetrain don't go bad sitting during off riding season. A lifter can possibly bleed down while sitting but won't keep the bike from starting.
You admit to a few things that you don't know, JMO but if you don't know Why not ask before suggesting to get into a mechanical issue?

[Tcontrol]

I stand corrected….

“your an educated condescending prick”

[davej]

I'm glad you feel that way. I think you pretty much stand alone with those thoughts but they are yours and I'm OK with it. In my over 20,000 post I have helped a lot of members here and more on the FB pages. I even helped a lot of members in person repair their bikes at the celina M&G's for a few years going there. 1 year I re-jetted over 20 bikes in the parking lot at no charge and even used some of my own parts. Also Built a Bike that was donated to raise money (over 15K) for a few organizations in Celina. I guess I am a real prick.

[roadiemort]

No Dave you are one of the nicest and giving gentleman I have ever met in all my years with the RSC new and old versions, TControl I lost all respect I had for you, sorry. Dave understands that a lot of us here would need to hire someone to do what your asking the OP to do and is using a more DIY approach that works most of the time, he has even personal message stuck members to walk them through things to save the embarrassment of feeling inadequate, thank you Dave.

[roadiemort]

I don't want to leave out Warden aka Jim as a friend either as part of the RSC team that has done beyond what one could ask of a giving man.

[Tcontrol]

I really do not care what you have contributed with over the years…
you dismissed a very valid explanation of what a compression test could and could not do…

you dismissed the original OP’s explanation of testing for fuel and spark… you fixated on the wet plug and ignored the starting fluid..

then you double down on the OP experiencing a flooded engine and call the person who looked at his carb an idiot…

i pointed out that you were a condescending prick based on just this series of posts and explained exactly what a visual inspection of the valve train could accomplish… again without acknowledging the weakness of a compression test regarding cams and lifters… (seems to be a weak point of the roadstar motor if oil changes are not performed with the proper ‘Z’ rated oil)

i even pointed out that mechanics “learn by doing” and some methods work better for some mechanics while other methods work out better for other mechanics… there is no “one size fits all”
strategy regarding troubleshooting engines…

different strokes for different folks …

you were too busy with the “holier than thou attitude” by pointing out all your education and experience… your obvious “self indulgance” that you were smarter than anyone else because of your work history and self importance…

so i replied with the “educated condescending prick” remark….

i do not know you other than posts on this clinic and my opinion regarding this last series of your posts is that “your way is the only way” seems a bit narcsisstic and self righteous….

if other clinic members want to view you as a stand up guy due to meet and greets and conversations with you … then they have had a different experience with you than i have… i consider what i said about you to be exactly what I experienced…

I haven’t met you and with your general philosophy as evidenced by my experience regarding your recent posts…. I really have no desire too…

[Duke]

Just a quick question; Do you have spark for sure?

[davej]

Duke watch what you ask, You might get thrown in the same category as me. LOL

[Shores]

I only see one person being a prick here on this thread and that is the person who is calling names. Stick to justifying your technical explanation and lay off the personal attacks or get off and go to Facebook where they tolerate that crap.

[davej]

Sorry you feel that way. I will always be here to help those that ask. If you want to tear your bike apart to needlessly check things that have nothing to do with a simple issue then go ahead. My advice to you would be to not take your own advice, you will be jumping down a bunch of rabbit holes that you don't need to. This guy asked for advice and you started a bunch of needless BS He will likely never be back when he sees your comments and attitude.

BTW stating my background to let you know I've been around the block a time or two is not as you say "self indulgence” that you were smarter than anyone else because of your work history and self importance…" it is just simply the truth. Don't take offense of it. You want to act like you are gonna school me as if I have no experience or diagnostic ability so I just wanted to let you know I've already been to school. Have You?


I would really like to just get back to helping this guy get his bike running again.