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  • SOLVED - NO Start Condition

    I posted this on the Facebook Clinic but was hoping to get some more input here...

    Went to start the bike to go home and nothing. turn the key, lights come on, speedo and fuel gauge cycle, in neutral (light is on), kickstand up, clutch pulled, kill switch in the run position, push the starter button and NOTHING. Started and ran without issue that morning. Got caught in a light rain day before.

    Battery has at full charge and the connections are clean.

    My kickstand switch screws are seized on so instead of stripping them, I followed the line from the kickstand sensor up to where it connects, disconnected it and shorted it out (connected a wire between the two connectors) on the bike side. Still nothing.

    I pulled the right side controls, cleaned up the kill switch contacts and starter button contacts. I added some dielectric grease. They were dirty but not that bad. Nothing indicative of something suddenly gone wrong. I also put a meter on all the wires at the controls and in the headlight. I have NO break in connection on any them. Kill switch works as it should. Everything looks good in the headlight too.

    When I turn the key and the kill switch is in the run position, usually I hear the fuel pump but there is nothing, even after cleaning the contacts.

    Jumping the solenoid only turns it over - no fire. I pulled the starter solenoid and tested it. The fuse is good. I put 12v to the two bronze connections and I can hear the relay activate. I put a meter on the bolts and applied power to the two bronze connections and I can hear the relay activate and I get 2 ohms.

    I checked the clutch wires to headlight bucket and there are no breaks.

    Is that a good reading for the starter solenoid?

    I bought a new relay (in right side cover). Nothing changed.

    Maybe it is the TCI - where is it and can I test it to verify good/bad? Thanks for your input!

  • #2
    Year miles and mods done to bike?

    Pull fuel pump hose and verify your pushing fuel at key on...

    Maybe bad cdi?
    LET'S RIDE

    Comment


    • #3
      Like Lug said, put voltage to the fuel pump and see if it's working. If I'm not mistaken there is another fuse there somewhere.
      It's not that life is so short, it's just that you're dead for so long.---unknown.

      Comment


      • #4
        Pull a spark plug and check for spark and condition of plug. if you have spark see if it will fire with a shot of starting fluid. If it does you have a fuel delivery problem. If the plug is wet or black carbon fouled you will probably not have spark and they will need to be at least cleaned and dried to go any further on diagnosis. I usually spray the plug with starting fluid and then dry it with a propane torch. That will dry it and clean any carbon off the plug that may be on there. If still no spark we can go on to the pick up coil to see if you are getting a signal to the ign module. But we don't want to get ahead of ourselves with that right now.

        Comment


        • #5
          As I read your post I get the impression that you get no response when you depress the start button. Are you working with a service manual? I have included the pages regarding the starting system. You seem to know how to perform electrical tests so I would suggest starting with page one. I'm sure we can find the problem.

          Comment


          • davej
            davej commented
            Editing a comment
            You are right Chooch. lol I guess the rest of us need to go back and read the whole thing LOL I guess I skimmed down to the part about jumping the relay and no fire.

          • jrbk
            jrbk commented
            Editing a comment
            Question... I assume that "10 Diode" on the first page is the CDI, correct? It has me test it on page 5.

        • #6
          Here is the reference diagram.

          Comment


          • #7
            http://www.werder.ee/Manual/XV1600.pdf

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by Lug Nut View Post
              Year miles and mods done to bike?

              Pull fuel pump hose and verify your pushing fuel at key on...

              Maybe bad cdi?
              Thank you!

              2004 XV1700 23,XXX
              Added a relayed fuse block to positive side and rail to negative side to power my accessories. Removed it for testing. Battery charging connection.

              I pulled the tank and put a meter on the wires to the fuel pump. I have ground but no power to the pump with key on, in neutral, kick stand up, kill switch in run postion and clutch pulled in. I know that is overkill but I am working my way through trying to trace down the issue.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by MikeyC View Post
                Like Lug said, put voltage to the fuel pump and see if it's working. If I'm not mistaken there is another fuse there somewhere.
                Thank you! Where will I find that fuse that you allude to? All fuses in the fuse box are good and the fuse on the solenoid is good.

                Comment


                • MikeyC
                  MikeyC commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That's the thing, I don't know where that fuse is. It has been mentioned on here before. Was hoping those in the know would chime in. It might be the one by the solenoid. Also, most of the wiring seams to go thru the headlight bucket. If your getting no power to the fuel pump you might just have to trace the wiring back on the schematic to see where it comes from.

              • #10
                Originally posted by davej View Post
                Pull a spark plug and check for spark and condition of plug. if you have spark see if it will fire with a shot of starting fluid. If it does you have a fuel delivery problem. If the plug is wet or black carbon fouled you will probably not have spark and they will need to be at least cleaned and dried to go any further on diagnosis. I usually spray the plug with starting fluid and then dry it with a propane torch. That will dry it and clean any carbon off the plug that may be on there. If still no spark we can go on to the pick up coil to see if you are getting a signal to the ign module. But we don't want to get ahead of ourselves with that right now.
                Thank you!
                Plugs have less than 5000 miles on them and look great. When I turn the key and press the start button I get nothing. The fuel and speedo needles cycle, lights come on, horn works, etc. but NO fuel pump. I don't think the start button or kill switch are the issues. Both were cleaned and I verified the wires are good into the headlight bucket. When I jump the solaniod it turns over but won't start. It is NOT getting spark. Just turns over when I jump the solenoid.

                How do I check the signal you speak of from/to pick up coil to/from ignition module (CDI)?

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by Chooch View Post
                  As I read your post I get the impression that you get no response when you depress the start button. Are you working with a service manual? I have included the pages regarding the starting system. You seem to know how to perform electrical tests so I would suggest starting with page one. I'm sure we can find the problem.
                  Thank you!
                  100% I have access to a service manual but haven't consulted it. I will have a look at what you posted and see if I can start from the beginning.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    The bike should start when in neutral without the clutch pulled in or the side stand up. You indicated starter motor turns when you jump the relay. You have no power to the fuel pump. If you look at the fuel pump section, the ignitor unit controls the fuel pump. Looking at the line diagram for the electric starting system it is obvious we have to get power to to the ignitor unit(13) and the starter relay (14) simultaneously. The common components to achieve this are 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 12. Since you stated that your instruments cycle when you turn the key we can eliminate 2 and 3. With the key turned on test for power to both sides of the engine stop switch (5). Then test for power to one side of the coil of the starting circuit cutoff relay (6) and ensure that the other side is grounded. If all of these check out the starting circuit cutoff relay (6) should cycle when you switch the engine stop switch (5). Now the start switch (12) should complete the circuit to energize the starter relay (14) and the ignitor unit (13). Let us know what you find.

                    Comment


                    • Chooch
                      Chooch commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Also, when looking at the electric starting system and fuel pump line diagrams, the common component that could cause a failure is the ignition fuse (4).

                  • #13
                    Originally posted by Chooch View Post
                    The bike should start when in neutral without the clutch pulled in or the side stand up. You indicated starter motor turns when you jump the relay. You have no power to the fuel pump. If you look at the fuel pump section, the ignitor unit controls the fuel pump. Looking at the line diagram for the electric starting system it is obvious we have to get power to to the ignitor unit(13) and the starter relay (14) simultaneously. The common components to achieve this are 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 12. Since you stated that your instruments cycle when you turn the key we can eliminate 2 and 3. With the key turned on test for power to both sides of the engine stop switch (5). Then test for power to one side of the coil of the starting circuit cutoff relay (6) and ensure that the other side is grounded. If all of these check out the starting circuit cutoff relay (6) should cycle when you switch the engine stop switch (5). Now the start switch (12) should complete the circuit to energize the starter relay (14) and the ignitor unit (13). Let us know what you find.
                    Thank you! I appreciate your help! I have to admit that this issue is kicking my but...

                    So I just want to be sure we are working from the same numbers and I need to make sure I understand what the manual is referring to for the numbers. I am looking at the first page where it says TROUBLESHOOTING (The Starter motor fails to turn). It is one of the images you uploaded in #5 above. I added notes as to what I have done, if anything.

                    1 - Main and ignition fuses - All fuses are good - Solenoid and in the fuse box. Are there more than that on a 2004? If so, where?
                    2- Battery - I pulled it and had it tested and it is a healthy battery. Connections on battery, body and solenoid were clean.
                    3 - Starter motor - spins when I jump the solenoid
                    4 - Relay Unit (starting circuit cutoff relay) - I bought a new one and it changed nothing. I didn't test this part. I have to get some clips to be able to connect it to power.
                    5 - Relay Unit (diode) - I bought a new one and it changed nothing. I tried testing both according to the manual and there is NO continuity (no beep) between (1) sky blue (positive) and (2) black/yellow (negative) wires or (1) sky blue (positive) and (3) blue/yellow negative. When I reverse positive and negative I get between 608-615 resistance on one side and 603 - 624 resistance on the other side. MAYBE BOTH RELAYS ARE BAD. One is brand new and they both do the same thing.
                    6 - Starter relay - (Solenoid?) - I tested it according to the manual and there in continuity when I put power to it.
                    7 - Main Switch - Is this the key switch? I haven't done anything with it yet.
                    8 - Engine stop switch - (kill switch on handlebars) - I pulled it apart and cleaned the contacts and added dielectric grease. I tested the connector in the headlight bucket and I have continuity from the kill switch when in the run position.
                    9 - Neutral switch - The neutral light comes on in neutral and goes off in gear.
                    10 - Sidestand switch - I shorted it out on the engine side and it changed nothing. I pulled the switch and it looked good inside. On kick stand side there is continuity when kick-stand is down and none when up.
                    11 - diode - Not sure where this is. The picture in the manual is looking at the bike from the right side and shows it's location as behind the battery box. Picture attached. I found nothing there.
                    Click image for larger version

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                    12 - Clutch switch - I tested connection of both wires to the bucket. They are good.
                    13 - Start switch - (button on handlebar?) - I pulled it apart and cleaned the contacts and added some dielectric grease. It has continuity into the handlebars.
                    15 - decompression solenoid - Not sure what this is. I attached a picture of what I think it is. The wires seem to match up according to the manual. How do I check if it is any good. There is continuity on the bike side (if I remember correctly).

                    Pulled the tank and there is no power to th

                    Decompression Solenoid?
                    Click image for larger version

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                    QUESTIONS...

                    When you say check for power to both sides of the engine stop switch (you said 5 but it is 8), do you mean at the switch on the handlebar or at the connector on the engines side in the headlight bucket?

                    I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "the coil of the starting circuit cutoff relay".

                    Once I hear back I will get to it. Also,

                    The thing is... this was all of the sudden. I drove it to work without issue and when I came out to go home, nothing.

                    Thank you!

                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • Chooch
                      Chooch commented
                      Editing a comment
                      The decompression solenoid is located on the right side of the engine just behind the camshaft cover and its function is to hold the exhaust valves open during the cranking process to lighten the load on the starter motor. The thermister measures heat but I can't find its function in the manual. Possibly to prevent the solenoid from overheating.

                  • #14
                    I'm sorry for the confusion. The drawing I was referencing was the first photo I posted (page 7-18). There is a simpler way to test the engine stop switch and the starting circuit cutoff relay. I tried this on my bike. Remove the right hand side cover and you will see two relays. With the key in the on position cycle the red engine stop switch and listen and/or feel for the relay to click. On my bike it is the right one but see the attached photo for clarification. Let us know if it is clicking.

                    Comment


                    • jrbk
                      jrbk commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Thank you. I know of what you are talking about. One is the blinker and the other is the relay you reference (in the right side cover. That is what I replaced. I will check th old and new one to see what it does.

                  • #15
                    Originally posted by Chooch View Post
                    I'm sorry for the confusion. The drawing I was referencing was the first photo I posted (page 7-18). There is a simpler way to test the engine stop switch and the starting circuit cutoff relay. I tried this on my bike. Remove the right hand side cover and you will see two relays. With the key in the on position cycle the red engine stop switch and listen and/or feel for the relay to click. On my bike it is the right one but see the attached photo for clarification. Let us know if it is clicking.
                    Thank you!

                    I just tested both (current & brand new one) and I get nothing. It is in neutral, key is on and I toggle the kill switch a few times and there is no action in the relay that is under the right side cover. Is that the only condition (kill switch in run position) that would need to be met to get a click in that relay or would there be other safety features that need to be in check?

                    I suppose I will pull the headlight again tonight and check the wires in there. Like I mentioned, I tested the kill switch and start button wires from the handlebars into the headlight bucket and they are good. So either my connection needs attention or there is an issue on the engine side of the connection.

                    Comment


                    • #16
                      Okay, now we have to find out why the starting circuit cut off relay isn't activating. There are three conditions that would cause this. One is the relay is faulty. You said you replaced the relay so we will skip that test for now. Two is the relay is not getting power to the coil. We need to check for power to the red/black wire going into the relay. With the key on and the engine stop switch in the run position, touch one probe of your tester to the red/black wire at the relay and the other probe to a known ground. Do you read 12 vdc? Three is there is no complete circuit due to a faulty ground. A quick test for this is with the key on and the engine stop switch in the run position touch one end of a jumper wire to the black/yellow wire in the back of the connector and the other end to a known ground. This will bypass the safety switches. Did you hear or feel a click?

                      Comment


                      • jrbk
                        jrbk commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thank you! I will do this when I get home today.

                    • #17
                      I have a good used 1600 cdi you could try and see if bike starts then you know what you need to get.... Just pay for shipping and it's yours...
                      LET'S RIDE

                      Comment


                      • jrbk
                        jrbk commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Will it work on a 1700?

                    • #18
                      Originally posted by Chooch View Post
                      Okay, now we have to find out why the starting circuit cut off relay isn't activating. There are three conditions that would cause this. One is the relay is faulty. You said you replaced the relay so we will skip that test for now. Two is the relay is not getting power to the coil. We need to check for power to the red/black wire going into the relay. With the key on and the engine stop switch in the run position, touch one probe of your tester to the red/black wire at the relay and the other probe to a known ground. Do you read 12 vdc? Three is there is no complete circuit due to a faulty ground. A quick test for this is with the key on and the engine stop switch in the run position touch one end of a jumper wire to the black/yellow wire in the back of the connector and the other end to a known ground. This will bypass the safety switches. Did you hear or feel a click?
                      Thank you!

                      I back probed both the red/black wire and black/yellow wire each to ground (separately). Neither gave me 12vdc but they both gave me .05 vdc with the key in the on position & kill switch in on position. I got .03-.04vdc with the key on and kill switch in off position. I also tested continuity on black/yellow to ground on the battery and no continuity. Maybe that is part of the safety features but that is what I got.

                      I also tested it with the relay unplugged and got the about the same thing (.03-.04vdc) on each to ground with kills switch on or off.

                      Comment


                      • #19
                        If you look at the simple line diagram that I first posted (page 7-18) you will see that power starts at the battery (1), goes through main fuse (2), through main switch (3), through ignition fuse (4), through engine stop switch (5), through starting circuit cutoff relay (6), and then to ground (through various safety switches. Unless we can get power to the starting circuit cutoff relay we will never be able to energize the starter relay or ignitor unit. We know we have voltage up to main switch (3) because your gauges cycle when you turn the key. So starting at main fuse (4) we need to check for 12 vdc to the engine stop switch (5). I believe this is a red/white wire. And then continue to check for power from the engine stop switch (5) to the starting circuit cutoff relay (6). If possible, you might try hooking up a hot jumper wire to the red/black wire on the starting circuit cutoff relay and if it energizes try to start the bike. MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN NEUTRAL. DO NOT TOUCH THE HOT JUMPER TO THE BLACK/YELLOW WIRE OR YOU WILL CREATE A DEAD SHORT.

                        Comment


                        • #20
                          Thank you, Chooch!

                          First, when I got home I checked all the connectors in the headlight and all have continuity. Checked all the connections to the hand controls (for the third time) and all have continuity when they are supposed to and not when they are not supposed to.

                          Next, I did what you suggested and then replied to you...

                          Just now, I traced good power all the way to the headlight bucket (red/white wire), plugged it back in and pushed the start button to check if power was getting to the kill switch and SHE TURNED OVER! Haven't heard that sound in over three weeks.

                          I am thinking that it was a loose connection at the fuse box or in the headlight bucket and my disturbing it corrected the connection issue. Now I will clean things up and add some dielectric grease for good measure.

                          I must tell you that last time I put the headlight back on I forgot to plug the right side controls back in so all my testing between Sunday and my pulling the headlight when I got home today was for naught. I discovered that prior to sending the last message and the tests were based on that connection being made. I had everything in the battery box apart yesterday and getting in there must have cleaned up a bad connection. I did take time to clean and dust things off when I was in there.

                          It wasn't till after I pulled the fuse box again today and probing for power in the headlight that I got it back online. I did blow the ignition fuse in the process (must have touched positive instead of negative). Replaced it with a new fuse, checked for power to the headlight bucket and then hit the start button and we are back in business. I checked that fuse a few times and it tested good so not sure if that was an issue all along.

                          Chooch, thank you for sticking with me on this and for your patience with me. I understand the electrical system a bit more now and am better off for it. I am all about helping other guys out so I will likely catalog my experience to help other guys with similar issues walk step by step through the process that you help me with to find the root cause.

                          Peace and stay upright!

                          Comment


                          • DEEPHATE
                            DEEPHATE commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I have been silently following this thread. I'm glad to hear you got it sorted.

                          • MikeyC
                            MikeyC commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Ditto Deephate

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