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  • the engine can hardly turn, starter testet


    Hi every one.

    I bought an xv1600 from 2000 that could not start.
    have taken it apart and done all the little things that now had to be done.

    But still can't get it to start and am getting pretty tired now :-)
    The battery is new, the starter works, solar relay changed.

    just took the camshaft apart to check the push rods but they seem to work fine.
    If I remove the spark plugs, the engine runs fine, but when I refit them, the engine can hardly turn.

    I got a big bang out the exhaust and af puf out the cab.

    I don't know where to start now, I think I've covered it all, but I think it's the problem with the vent ?

    what do i do any ideas?

  • #2
    from Texarkana, in the Arklatex. Sounds like an issue with the decompression solenoid. The engine turns over fine when it can's make compression, correct?

    Comment


    • #3
      from Solon, Iowa. I agree with Mr. Miyagi, sounds like the decompression solenoid isn't doing it's job. Also make sure the battery cable ends are all clean on all the connections. The starters can also build up a lot of carbon dust internally and can be cleaned out. Inspect the plate that holds the starter brushes for cracks as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        I concur with Mr. Miyagi Check and see if the decompression spoon is working. Bottom right side of motor.
        Can someone post a pic of decompression spoon
        It's not that life is so short, it's just that you're dead for so long.---unknown.

        Comment


        • #5
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          “just took the camshaft apart to check the push rods but they seem to work fine.”

          please explain this further….

          you can check the camshaft/lifters by removing the cylinder top plate… this is called the “rocker cover”

          with spark plugs removed… turn motor over using starter and observe the rockers… do they open the valves?… when they are not opening valves, are the pushrods loose..?

          If you took the cams out as your “quoted statement suggests”….did you out the proper pushrod on the proper lifter?

          did the bike run when you got it?… if not, did the previous owner attempt repairs?… your initial statement leads to some compelling questions..

          Comment


          • #6
            First of all, just by the language he uses, I think the OP is not a crack mechanic. Second, how do you "take apart" the cam? Well, you don't, which only leaves us to guess as to what he may have actually meant. Maybe he means he pulled the cam cover and inspected it. If he actually removed the cam and didn't index it, he may have put it in wrong. That could cause a backfire. IDK if the RS is a non-compliance engine, but if it is, there could be bent valves now. To answer Tcontrol's question, he stated in the OP the bike did not run when he got it. If the motor won't turn over properly with the spark plugs in, that does point to the compression release. He stated that when he took the spark plugs out, the engine runs fine?? Really? Maybe he has the only Diesel RS in existence? Once again, his language comes into issue. Perhaps English is not his first language, he didn't bother to post where he's from so we have no clue there either. Most likely he meant the motor turns over with the plugs out and not with them in.

            The problem with buying a non-running bike is, you're chasing unknown demons, or someone else's fuck-ups, or both. His snooping around inside the motor may have inadvertently caused problems that were not there before. There is a handful of guys on this site that know these bikes inside out, and even they get stumped occasionally. So the novice venturing into unknown territory has some rough seas ahead, not to mention the added expense of correcting your own mistakes. I don't mean to disparage the OP, I wish him the best of luck & many happy years with his RS.




            Comment


            • Brad_G
              Brad_G commented
              Editing a comment
              I too got a sense that english may not be his native language.

          • #7
            First of all, thank you for taking the time.

            sorry for the language, I'm from Denmark and use google translate.

            --
            Mr. Miyagi

            from Texarkana, in the Arklatex. Sounds like an issue with the decompression solenoid. The engine turns over fine when it can's make compression, correct?

            that's my thought too but not sure how to check it,

            I have taken the whole cam apart, had it all out and checked that it was as it should be, all the *gears* and checked the small pins, but it looks like it works as it should.


            --
            Brad_G

            from Solon, Iowa. I agree with sounds like the decompression solenoid isn't doing it's job. Also make sure the battery cable ends are all clean on all the connections. The starters can also build up a lot of carbon dust internally and can be cleaned out. Inspect the plate that holds the starter brushes for cracks as well.

            All the cables are as they should be and there is a new battery.

            have had the starter removed and tested it runs fine full blast

            ---
            MikeyC
            I concur with Mr. Miyagi Check and see if the decompression spoon is working. Bottom right side of motor.
            Can someone post a pic of decompression spoon.

            the decompression spoon is working fin an not bent. it try to pull it out while pushing start bottum didint help.

            ---
            Tcontrol

            “just took the camshaft apart to check the push rods but they seem to work fine.”

            please explain this further….

            you can check the camshaft/lifters by removing the cylinder top plate… this is called the “rocker cover”

            with spark plugs removed… turn motor over using starter and observe the rockers… do they open the valves?… when they are not opening valves, are the pushrods loose..?

            If you took the cams out as your “quoted statement suggests”….did you out the proper pushrod on the proper lifter?

            did the bike run when you got it?… if not, did the previous owner attempt repairs?… your initial statement leads to some compelling questions..


            What I mean by I've taken it apart is I've had it all out checked the gears and the little pins and it looks like it's all working as it should,
            it should open the valves.

            but how can i check it ?

            can see they push a little bit to the value lifters from the lifter case ,so think it is as it should be.

            I can try and take some pictures tomorrow, so maybe you can understand what I mean.

            yes again must apologize for my bad english.


            --

            Father Pobasturd

            I have to apologize for my bad English. but hey sounds like you should go out and get some pussy because you're in a bad mood.
            good luck with that, otherwise it can be bought if you're unlucky.

            Best regards from Denmark

            Comment


            • Mr. Miyagi
              Mr. Miyagi commented
              Editing a comment
              Your sense of humor is intact, lol. I hope you figure your issue out.

            • MikeyC
              MikeyC commented
              Editing a comment
              Lol. Gotta like people from Denmark. Wish you could make one of our meet and greets. Fatherpo is a good guy you just got to know how to read him

            • Father Pobasturd
              Father Pobasturd commented
              Editing a comment
              Married 30 years I have pussy on tap 24/7, I'm just an asshole, that's all. But be forewarned, there's an even BIGGER asshole on here than me. He hasn't shown up on this thread yet. Give it time, he almost always shows up. Once again, best of luck with your bike.

          • #8
            Just forgot to answer that with the spark plugs.

            So now that they are in, my stare cant drive it around. mabye one time that is.

            When I toke 2 spark plugs out and tried it, it all ran fine.

            So that indicates that it cannot get rid of the pressur

            Comment


            • MidnightRide
              MidnightRide commented
              Editing a comment
              Again, points to the decompression valve. Dig deeper in that area.

          • #9


            And here’s to pussy ! Fisse!
            2009 Roady
            2009 Stratoliner S

            Comment


            • #10
              take the cover off the decompression solenoid, (Lower right side of bike) You will see a lever that it pushes. Activate the lever by hand and turn the engine over to see if it spins and starts. If so bend the lever so that it almost touches the solenoid pin. The pin should move out for a second and then back in when trying to start the bike. if the pin don't move clean and lube it to see if you can get it working. They don't usually go bad but they do lose adjustment on occasion.

              Comment


              • #11
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                Since you bought a non-running bike…

                Step 1…..check for spark at each spark plug by removing and grounding… turn motor over….check for spark by looking at the plug… you may need to refresh the coil/spark plug boot connection… check internal resistor in the spark plug boot …
                once you establish spark…

                Step 2….. check the decompression solenoid spoon.. lower right side of motor… under the cover shown in picture… you should have removed this cover when you “looked at the cams”…

                step 3… if you did not remove the cams/lifters/push rods/and rocker arms, you did not look at the cam lobes…… to confirm proper operstion you must remove the rocker cover at top of each cylinder… remove spark plugs… look at the rockers while you engage the starter… they are set at “zero lash” which means when the valves are “not compressed” by the rocker arm, there should not be much vertical play on the push rods… confirm that the valves are actually moving with the rocker arm motion.. it is important… you cannot see the cam lobes or the lifters without pulling it all apart… check that the push rods are on the correct lifters at this time… (if somebody else tried to fix the motor.. they may have installed them wrong) please look at the cutaway picture of the 1600 engine above….

                since the bike was not running when you bought it, it is important to have spark, decompression solenoid activity, proper valve action and correct timing…

                the condition of the lifters and cam lobes… unknown if the original owner used the proper “V-Twin” oil which contains zinc… the roadstar engine uses a flat tappet lifter design which is prone to excessive wear if the wrong oil is used…

                that covers the basic mechanics of the engine… next would be the fuel system… fuel pump, carb, intake manifold.. etc…

                There are some other things to check after you get it running… lets get it running first…!!!

                Comment


                • Apsn
                  Apsn commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Step 1 .

                  Had all the spark plugs out and they move fine

                  step 2

                  the spoon is fine, have posted a video af cam.

              • #12
                Could it be the lifters aren’t pumping up and not opening the valves?
                It's not that life is so short, it's just that you're dead for so long.---unknown.

                Comment


                • davej
                  davej commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No. the valves are always closed on a compression stroke so valves not opening would be the same and would not keep it from turning over. Closed valves would keep it from starting but it would crank over fine.

                • Tcontrol
                  Tcontrol commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I will disagree with davej on that… if the cam lobe will not open the exhaust valve… decompression solenoid does not relieve any pressure… compression psi builds with just a few strokes of the piston…
                  You might be able to turn the motor over a couple of strokes but even a good battery will die very quickly… charge battery… repeat…

                  If exhaust valve does not open… it would most likely relieve the cylinder pressure through the carb manifold… puff of air out the carb… it might even blow the carb off the intake manifold depending on your air filter attachment design.

                  If intake valve does not open… how do you get gas vapor in cylinder… piston would pull a vacuum in the cylinder… starter cannot overcome the vacuum suction pressure easily… same issue.. starter barely turns the motor over… battery dies very quickly…

                  So i have to respectfully disagree with dave’s conclusion…

                • davej
                  davej commented
                  Editing a comment
                  you are somewhat correct on what you are saying but that is not the question he asked. I answered the question he asked. Don't get off into left field on what should be a simple diagnosis. Check the decomp solenoid and report back.

              • #13
                These bikes need the proper oil to survive. The lifters won't tolerate cheap oil. Most people here use Amsoil or Mobil 1 4-stroke M/C oil. Of course, if the lifters are already flattened from using shitty oil, they will need replacing. Could possibly fuck up the cam too, but less likely. If you are still in communication with the prior owner, ask him what kind of oil he used, and at what intervals it was changed. There are some automotive lifters some people have used, which are less expensive, myself, I question the practice of using internal engine parts made for a water-cooled engine in an air-cooled engine, but I have not heard of anyone having issues using the car lifters, so there it is. And, before you do an oil change, please consult here first. There are some odd procedures you won't find in the factory service manual, or for that matter, any service manual I'm aware of, it's not just a straightforward oil change per se. And never, ever, trust the dip stick, it lies. These bikes rarely leak oil, and will run without using oil between reasonable change intervals. If you're an old-school H-D type like I was, you want to put oil in all the time 'cause it needs it. That's a habit I was only so glad to break, especially with the price of oil now.

                Anyway, the moral of this story is don't skimp on the oil. Yes it's expensive, but you will be rewarded with long engine life in return. Many members here with over 100,000 miles (don't know the KM conversion), some over 150,000, and a few over 200,000! That's unheard of for an air-cooled engine. Good luck.

                Comment


                • Apsn
                  Apsn commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Can't get hold of the previous owner unfortunately. so the way you see it, I should have checked the valves?

                • Father Pobasturd
                  Father Pobasturd commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Not necessarily. Only if the motor is a non-compliance motor, which I'm unsure of. A non-compliance motor will allow the pistons to hit the valves if, say, the cam was installed correctly. In car engines, cars with chain or belt driven valve trains will allow the pistons to hit the valves if the belt or chain slips or breaks if it's a non compliance motor. A compliance motor won't, it has sufficient room in the combustion chamber to accommodate incorrect valve timing. Hopefully someone else will chime in and tell us which is which with the RS motor. Now, if the cam is worn down or the lifters are damaged from using cheap oil or extended change intervals, that would make the valves not open far enough for it to run correctly. You might still see them move when the engine spins over, but not move enough. There's many things that could be the cause of your problem. Just correct one thing at a time and try it again. If you do a bunch of shit all at once, you won't know what actually fixed it. Again, good luck. Everyone here wants to help you and is rooting for you.

              • #14






                https://youtube.com/shorts/HGyPRwtgAr0

                https://youtube.com/shorts/qC5YRWnZ0uM



                Comment


                • #15

                  Comment


                  • #16
                    https://youtube.com/shorts/HGyPRwtgAr0

                    Comment


                    • #17

                      Comment


                      • #18
                        Via your pics and videos…
                        the pushrods appear to be on the correct lifters… a little fuzzy in the focus… but appears correct…

                        video shows rocker arms moving so i have to assume the valves are opening and closing correctly…

                        the decompression spoon is on the solenoid pin…does the solenoid activate when you press the starter.. in other words… does the spoon get pushed by the core as you hit the start switch??
                        the two rods in the center of the cam gears get pushed in via the decompression spoon/arm assembly… provided nothing is bent or broken both of the cam pins are activated at the same time. This occurs as you press the starter switch… when you release the starter switch… the soleniod deactivates and the spoon releases… (spoon moves and releases about 5-6 mm)… there isnt a lot of movement but it does move and release… look closely while testing… spoon should be free when de-energized…

                        if all that works …. Have you checked for spark with each spark plug? The spark plug boot can be removed from the coil wire by unscrewing the boot… it just twists on the coil wire… inside the boot where the spark plug fits is a flathead screw cap… under the screw cap is a resistor… dis-assemble and clean corrosion if needed… you may have to trim the coil wire slightly to refresh the electrical connection to the coil wire/spark plug boot assembly… check for spark first and only dis-assemble and repair the ones that do not spark…

                        while you have the tank off…. The throttle cable on the right side of the backbone passes closely to the coil… put a little electrical tape on the throttle cable where it passes the coil… it has been known to short out the coil on some bikes…

                        once the decompression solenoid and spark plugs are confirmed as working correctly…. We can continue the process of troubleshooting to the fuel system…

                        Comment


                        • #19
                          can you post pics of the timing marks on the cam and crank lined up properly all at the same time?

                          Also have you manually pushed in the decop rod "WHILE CRANKING IT OVER" That will tell you alot and help us in the diagnosis.

                          Comment


                          • #20
                            only way to ttest a coil is with a VOM, simple spark checks are inadequate.
                            seeing visual spark using a grounded plug can lead to misdiagnosis
                            leaving a plug wire off for a while can fry a coil
                            dont aske me how i know

                            Comment


                            • Tcontrol
                              Tcontrol commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I am trying to help a guy get a bike running… i suggested some simple things to check regarding pushrods, rockers, decompression solenoid actions, spark plug activity.. etc..

                              You guys are quick to point out what you feel are faults in my techniques and want to critique . If a spark plug does not have spark… then the motor will not run worth a shit…. Is a volt meter a better method…. Probably is .. is it the only way to confirm spark… no it isnt… let some “basic” troubleshooting occur… then you can get all fancy with volt meters and electrical troubleshooting…. Each step i have listed answers certain things to allow the troubleshooting method to proceed…

                              The “quick” tests for spark will not kill a coil… if you want to run extended tests… anything can happen… he bought a bike that does not run… i am trying to evaluate his issue in as few steps as possible… you may or may not agree… this method works on any motor i have worked on for the past 50 years… you may have different methods than i do…. That does not make these methods wrong… it just makes them different..

                              Not everyone has the capability or knowledge to use a volt meter… interpeting results of a volt meter can be tricky at times… lets just keep on task and identify obvious issues to assist him in getting the bike running…

                              the basics:
                              1. Does it have proper compression?
                              2. Does it have spark?
                              3. Does it have fuel..?

                              Once these things are established… then you can get more in depth with troubleshooting techniques… good god… keep it simple… then get in depth once you know where to go…

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