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  • motor dies when put in to gear

    Greetings all,
    I sure hope somebody can help with this, cause I’m all out of options.
    2005 road star, 42mm mikuni, no pump, dyna 3000 ignition, barnett spring plate.
    The motor dies when put into gear. Bike idles fine, revs fine (love that 42).
    BA voltage was 12.5 volts at time of test. Engine stop switch is in run. So far I’ve checked:
    Wire harness for damage and continuity. All wires are good condition, connected securely with 0.000 ohm readings (have continuity). Also no shorts
    according to schematics. I am not an electrician, but I do understand dc, diodes, the sccr relay, 4 and 5 pin relays, positive side switching,
    neg side switching, I can breakdown a circuit for voltage drop, series and parallel, etc. guys, I can't find this bastard.
    Pick up coil: pulled the clutch cover and inspected the coil and lead, all good, in place w/ no damage–ohmed out at 282 ohms 72 degrees f
    Ignition coils: primary coil resistance: rear coil = 1.59-1.62, front coil = 1.58-1.61
    Secondary resistance: rear =14.16, front = 14.21
    Plug caps resistance: Front cylinder- left 956, right 937. Rear jug- left 953, right 889
    Neutral safety switch: engine off, ignition on, 12.5 volts (ba voltage) / 0 ohms when in neutral. 0 volts / infinity ohms when in gear.
    Manual says this is factory normal. NC when in neutral.
    Clutch safety switch: lever pulled 12.5 volts / 0 ohms. Lever out infinity / 0 volts
    Side stand switch: removed 8 years ago and wires hard connected together. Permanently up.
    SCCR replaced with new that passed all checks.
    Reg/rectifier: passed all diode checks and putting out 13.9-14.2v at 5000 ripums.
    Stator: Ohmed out at 46,46,49. No grounds on any terminal

    I did get the bike to run when IN gear if the neutral switch is bypassed; by disconnecting the sky blue bullet connector, jumping the female (wire harness side) to ground.
    So am I correct in understanding that a constant ground is not how the switch is supposed to operate, and that the switch has checked out fine (above),
    so I have an issue somewhere else. Any ideas where would sure help cause I don't know what else to check?

    I swapped the dyna 3000 back to the factory IG module and bike would not start. Turns over fine via starter motor, but no spark at spark plugs.

    Also, I need the diode in the Side stand/clutch switch circuit. does anyone know if this is it? check out the ridiculous description in the manual




    Thanks for any help.


  • #2
    I had the same thing happen to me just grounded the neutral safety switch by the transfer case. Neutral light is on all the time now. But I can ride. Been that way for the last two years. I know it's not right but I can ride. Just have to remember to manually check for neutral before starting because now it will start in gear.

    Comment


    • #3
      Mitch82,
      thanks for the reply. yeah, I've been thinking about that. it is a solution, but i'm not sure how that affects the SCCR. according to the schematic below, from the RS manual, we're basically tricking the computer to think it's always in neutral. I believe that condition constantly energizes the starting circuit cutoff relay, which in turn keeps the starting relay energized...If I'm reading the wire schematic correctly. In my experience, most relay coil side aren't designed to keep constant power on? on the other hand, our light relays in cars are always on, you've got two years on it...I'm hopen for more clarification on that.

      the system goes thru the ecu then grounds thru the neutral or side stand switch. Does any of the electric gurus here agree?

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Start Schm.png Views:	3 Size:	140.3 KB ID:	57087


      As far as remembering to manually check for neutral before starting, eh,
      I've been doing that for 40 years of riding. one should always do that. man, we didn't even have a neutral "light" back then, so forget about a clutch or side stand switch. I'm completely fine taking that neutral switch out of the system, like I did with the side stand switch 8 years ago. never had an incident.

      last year I spent $1600 to have the local dealer replace my transfer gear oil pump. I was happy to spend the money, cause I just didn't want to do it. The pump was $250. so it would cost ~ $1250 to replace the neutral switch. That switch is mostly plastic. I've never held one, but I bet it grounds thru the engine internals, very cheesy in my book. so if mine goes, it's gone.

      does anybody know what this thing is?

      Click image for larger version  Name:	002.JPG Views:	3 Size:	121.8 KB ID:	57088
      The clymers manual refers to a diode, but states it doesn't show it. Also fig 44 is not the side this came from, and this has two black wires, not blue/yellow and blue white. then again, I've never seen a battery with TWO negative terminals like in the schematic above.
      Attached Files

      Comment


      • #4
        I am no electrician and not good with electrical schematics. I couldn't tell anything. I just know my bike is carbureted. Spark and fuel and I am good to go. I haven't noticed anything performance related with my remedy. However with your bike being fuel injected it is hard to say if that may toy with the computer. I am sure someone else on here will chime in and help out. I have considered doing the repair but I am just to tight to buy gaskets and do that much just for a safety switch that could have been engineered to be replaced without taking the transfer case apart.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mitch82 View Post
          I am no electrician and not good with electrical schematics. I couldn't tell anything. I just know my bike is carbureted. Spark and fuel and I am good to go. I haven't noticed anything performance related with my remedy. However with your bike being fuel injected it is hard to say if that may toy with the computer. I am sure someone else on here will chime in and help out. I have considered doing the repair but I am just to tight to buy gaskets and do that much just for a safety switch that could have been engineered to be replaced without taking the transfer case apart.
          His 2005 bike is carbonated. FI started in 2008.

          Comment


          • Mitch82
            Mitch82 commented
            Editing a comment
            That's what I get for being half asleep lol. I was reading a post about someone else's bike before this

        • #6
          Could it be number 47 in this pic.

          Comment


          • #7

            That’s the harness for carb heater.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #8
              He said that it's not the original carb. Thought it might have been something PO messed with?

              Comment


              • #9
                I scanned rather quickly so if I missed something I apologize. But, has the side stand switch been checked? Had a Road Star do this same thing and all I did was remove the side stand switch, open it up (two screws) clean the contacts and put it back together. It has been working ever since. Took about 5 minutes in a parking lot with a screw driver and a pocket knife.
                It's not that life is so short, it's just that you're dead for so long.---unknown.

                Comment


                • #10
                  What Mikey said. Side stand switch is the first thing I'd check. Also, the manual may be referring to the side cover, all the relays, fuses, other electricals, etc. are located under there. As for the thing in the photo, I can't say for certain from that angle, but it sure looks like a brake pad wear sensor from a car.

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	1041723_x450.jpg Views:	0 Size:	3.5 KB ID:	57142

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    He said he removed the side stand switch

                    Side stand switch: removed 8 years ago and wires hard connected together. Permanently up.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Oh, I missed that, make sure the wires are still together and clean. Were they soldered(good) or wire nutted(bad).
                      It's not that life is so short, it's just that you're dead for so long.---unknown.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by NCB View Post
                        He said he removed the side stand switch

                        Side stand switch: removed 8 years ago and wires hard connected together. Permanently up.
                        But how are the wires connected? Solder and shrink tube ? Or cheap butt connector that could be full of crud and bad connection?

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          yeah it does Doc_V ( you probably don't remember me from years back on the old clinic) how u been Doc?

                          those are wear type sensors, right? they wear down and make contact. this was nowhere near a disk. it was located under the left side cover, on the final drive side of the bike, extending behind the battery.

                          Here's where I'm at with this unknown item. I just need to ID it, so I can figure out if it is messing up the puter.
                          If it is a thermal switch, it is not being used (HS 42 for a 1000+ miles now). If it is a diode, probably needs to be replaced (no continuity in either direction).

                          In the case of a thermal sw: clymers manual shows: Fig 44 in the pic below is the carb heater. it is a 2 pin connector lead with two wires. one connects to power (a) and the other to a ground bracket (b). So that accounts for the heater. so where's the thermal switch?






                          I believe 44 and 46 in your schematic Doc, are respective.
                          So please keep the ideas coming.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            HA! found it. it is the thermal switch. So I'm back to the original issue. Any help would be appreciated.

                            Comment


                            • #16
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Thermal SW.jpg
Views:	2140
Size:	305.1 KB
ID:	57185Click image for larger version

Name:	Wires.jpg
Views:	2171
Size:	116.2 KB
ID:	57184 Yep it has two black wires. since it is a ground side switch, even better
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • #17
                                OK, bike is up and running. Just got back from 1500 miles in 4 days. 4 days of nothing but back road twisties gentlemen. Blue Ridge pkwy, Chera-something hwy, and of course the “Tail”. I figured 1500 mi was a good shakedown. The bike performed FLAWLESSLY!
                                Here was the problem with the bike. BUT!...in my defense…the dynatek 3000 acts COMPLETELY different from the factory ECM under this exact scenario. So, Kurt, doc, Fat Back, be gentle with me
                                AHH Hemm. (choke) I reassembled the Ignition switch… backwards. WAIT, wait…I did this,… and this is critical, once before. Aaoow! WHAT?

                                Yeah, but at that time, after basic trouble shooting: starter motor turns engine, it had gas but no spark (sscr/fuel functions, no spark)…last place I worked was the IG switch, so...in I went. Guess WHAT? That fricken plastic disk has two, yes TWO flats at…yep u got it, 180 degrees OUT! OK flip it around bike works. That happened over two years ago, but I am now aware. Fastfwd to end of Nov, 2018 and I break into the ig sw again (looking for a keyed hot). In feb, 2019 I tried to start the bike… AFTER installing other upgrades (dynatek).

                                For anyone else who wonders down this path…

                                Scenario 1: With a stock ECM:
                                when the ignition switch contact plate is assembled/reassembled in the opposite (180 degree rotation from factory specs), position, AND you are running the factory ECM, the end result should be (at least for me it was) engine turns over (SSCR/fuel functions), but no spark can be confirmed. I, and the Yamaha dealer mech, both confirmed this. That harness and its components have been ohmed, nuked, and fondled seductively by us both for continuity and factory specs. That harness is confirmed good.

                                Scenario 2: U installed a dynatek 3000 under the above conditions (same 180 out ig sw contact plate). Now your end result will be:
                                bike starts and runs ONLY in NEUTRAL, but dies (electronically, not fuel) when put into gear (waaa?), BUT starts and runs factory spec if u jump the neutral sw to ground (exception: neutral light is now always on).. Whisky Tango Foxtrot? These two ECMs act 100% differently. So snice I reassembled the ig sw a few months before, and I did multiple upgrades at once (I know, I know), I was not thinking ig switch. especially since I NEVER had a problem that under KEY ON, allowed it to die in gear; function properly if neutral sw jumped. Yeah, tell me that doesn’t scream ig switch?

                                Had I made a simple decision to start the bike “before” I swaped out the ECM’s, I would have realized the result of scenario 1 and could have easily reached the 180 out conclusion since I had experienced that before. But no, I decided to try the damn dynatek 1st, “believing it would act like the factory ECM. HA, HA, HA.

                                So I ask anyone out there, how could one ECM (factory) function the sscr without spark, and another manufactures' ECM, functions running in neutral but die in gear unless jumped and then the stupid neutral light stays on. BUT, both function the bike per factory when u put the ig sw in correctly?? (oh yeah, side stand switch is irrelevant)


                                Any way I’m pretty confident someone should save this headache under “dynatek 3000 and ig sw 180 out”

                                Comment


                                • #18
                                  Ha ha. Simple things can snowball at times.

                                  Cherahola Skyway is the route. My favorite area of the country to ride in. We just got back from a week in that area (2nd week in September). Have a little meet up there every year. Thing is, no one rides Roadstars anymore (except for one fine New Yorker). Most of us wanted something a bit more powerful and more lean friendly for it. Love it. Go there twice a year when I can. Would go more if it was closer.

                                  Glad you have your answer now. I’m working on a bit of an unknown problem myself at the moment and it can wear on you for sure.

                                  Comment


                                  • #19
                                    Where can I get a Clymers manual? It looks like a much better manual the Yamaha service manual I have.

                                    Comment


                                    • #20
                                      I got mine on ebay for around 40 smackers

                                      Comment

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