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Weak lifter???  I can push down one lifter easily by hand , while Adjusting valves

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  • #21
    A lifters height does not change whether it is pumped up or not. There shouldn't be free play like that. I wouldn't start it if it were me.

    Comment


    • davej
      davej commented
      Editing a comment
      You are correct. If there is an actual gap between the pushrod end and the rocker it will likely bend a pushrod if he starts it. If the pushrod end is secure in the end of the rocker with lifter spring pressure on it it may just need to be pumped up. Just like the one he took out.

  • #22
    Yes everything's together with no gaps, but I can press both of them about an eighth or a few millimeters. Yamaha manuals weird it says run the engine for 5 minutes, right in the middle of the procedure, but it doesn't tell you to put all the rest of the parts back on first , like the covers.so it doesn't really make any sense. As long as everything stays where it's supposed to, it's not too loose, or too tight where it will open a valve too much I should be good. I used to rebuild corvair engines and stuff back in the sixties 70s and Volkswagens, but I never tore into an engine of a motorcycle before except for a two stroke top ends. Messing with lifters is new to me. I've never had one day a training as a mechanic in my life, everything I I have learned has been from School in hard Knocksville. And from what I have read and learn from you guys here.

    Comment


    • #23
      If there are "NO GAPS" and it just pushes down like the old one did it just needs to be pumped up it will pump up when it is started. Your other post made it sound as if there was a actual gap and not just easy to depress like the original. If there is a gap you will bend pushrods.

      I still think that the original one was just bleeding down when sitting and was pumping up fine when running. I think your noise was from the adjustment gap being at .006 or whatever excessive gap you posted. Did you take it apart and inspect it? In fact before taking it apart put it in a oil bath and pump it up then take it out of the oil bath wipe off the outside of it with a rag and set it in a dry dish overnight and see what drains out of it. Then take it apart and clean everything up, reassemble and do the same thing and see what comes out of it sitting overnight.

      Comment


      • #24
        ok, i went back and rechecked front cylinder valve clearance. its a bit iffy with 2 valves on one adjuster.???, i still dont get that? im thinkin .put a feeler guage under each , two at the same time? till each barely slides? wouldnt that be easier? lo and behold, one of the front cyl lifters, also i can push down a 1/8 to a quarter in. Fired right up., drove around well idled well. still clattery tho, so, i am going to do the front 2 lifters next. tuff 2 get a good valve adjustment when lifter just compresses/moves, am i wrong???

        Comment


        • #25
          i think the new lifters just needed to get pumped up. i will recheck valve clearance on the cyl with new lifters, now that they have been run for 15 minutes. is that enuf?

          Comment


          • #26
            The new lifter will pump up almost instantly after you start it. If you install a lifter that isn't completely pumped up hard all that you need to do to adjust is to press down and hold the "NON ADJUSTABLE" side until it just touches the top of the valve then adjust the adjustable side to spec. I like to adjust to the tight side of the spec.

            Comment


            • #27
              Zero lash. Don't use a feeler gauge.

              Comment


              • brianmac
                brianmac commented
                Editing a comment
                zero lash , how do u do dat? just snug until pushrod wont turn, and back off? how do u measure ZERO ?

            • #28
              the spec uses a feeler gauge. If you want to adjust to 0 lash loosen the locknut and spin the adjuster bolt by hand until it just touches the top of the valve on the adjustable side. hold the adjuster bolt to keep it from moving and tighten the lock nut. it has nothing to do with the pushrod side. If you tighten it down to where it tightens the pushrod then it is too tight.

              Comment


              • #29
                Thumb on the non adjustable side of the rocker and with pressure applied on the valve tip there, move over to the adjustable side and screw it down with your fingers til it touches that valve stem under it. Tighten the locking nut on it without letting it turn the screw any more. Now both are synced to the rocker. Zero lash is the lifter’s job when it pumps up.

                Comment


                • #30
                  Check the gap on the non-adjustable side with a .001 feeler gauge. If it doesn't go, or is tight, you're fine. If it slips in and out too easily, you have too much gap on the non-adjuster side. Back out the adjuster and try again.

                  Like Dave said, as long as there's no gap between the push rod and rocker arm, even if you can push the rocker arm down, you're fine. And of course, this assumes you have the motor set to TDC for the cylinder you're working on.

                  If you're worried about first start up, put the bike in neutral, pull *all* the plug wires and remove one plug from each cylinder, then press and hold the stater button for about 10 seconds. Wait about 20 seconds and repeat a second time. This will pump up the lifters before starting the motor. Just don't do it too many times are keep the starter going too long or it can over heat the starter.

                  Comment


                  • davej
                    davej commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Doc, If he has noise he wants to get rid of maybe he needs to read your rocker locker thread.

                  • Doc_V
                    Doc_V commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Ya;, lot of good info in that thread.

                • #31
                  Those early 1600s are known for having faulty lifters this one's got 60k on it. if I put new lifters all around and adjust the valves. And still noisy , 0h well what are you going to do.

                  Comment


                  • Shores
                    Shores commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You need a rocker locker modification. Often the noise comes from lateral movement from the rocker arm pivot tubing or whatever that piece is called. Lance is working on a mod and Davej came up with one of his own.

                  • Doc_V
                    Doc_V commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'd recommend Dave's method. There's still some movement with the smaller Rocker Lockers, You could go one step larger on the drill bit with the Lockrs, but Dave's way will definitely stop the movement.

                  • Duke
                    Duke commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yes to mod on a 1700 rocker arm shaft, NO to mod on a 1600 rocker arm shaft. The 1700 has a hollow tube larger diameter shaft, and the 1600 has a hard solid steel small diameter shaft.

                • #32
                  I did notice that a cold rocker arm will slide back and forth a smidge. I just assumed when it heated up or pressure was applied by pushrod that it didn't matter.

                  Comment


                  • #33
                    We have found a lot of the noise is from the center rocker shaft actually spinning in the rocker plate tower and ticking from hitting the shaft locking bolt. With the rockers in a relaxed position (no pressure on them) look at the end of the shaft and you will see a slot cut into it. put a large screwdriver in the slot and twist it back/forth. If there is any movement at all that would be a big source of upper end ticking noise. Mine didn't have any twist movement by hand and when I locked it down my bike got quieter.

                    Here is a good thread to read about the rocker locker DocV is working on and my simple mod to lock the rocker shaft. Duke is also working on a fix for the 1600's. My mod will work on both 1600's and 1700's

                    https://www.roadstarclinic.com/forum...ke-a-r-version

                    Comment


                    • brianmac
                      brianmac commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Thanks Dave I did look at that briefly thanks for the summation. That's real easy to check too. It seems like you could put a set screw on the other end, but that could deform the shaft, and it would damage the journal on its way out upon removal

                  • #34
                    locking the shaft with a bolt is what my mod is and it works great. I didn't use a set screw, I drilled and tapped it and locked it down tight.

                    Comment


                    • Shores
                      Shores commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Dave, did you put a bolt at both ends of each shaft or just one end?

                  • #35
                    Shores, I only put it on 1 end. I put it on the pushrod side. The offset of the rocker tower made it to tight to get my drill in the correct spot to drill the other side. If I had taken the plate off the bike I would have done both sides just to be redundant but I don't think it is really needed. I drilled and tapped right on the bike. I stuffed rags into the pushrod tubes and had a shop vac running next to my drill bit when I drilled it so nothing got into the engine

                    Comment


                    • Duke
                      Duke commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That is a good fix for the 1700 with the rocker arm guide tube Dave.
                      The 1600 rocker guide shaft is solid and heat treated. I tried drilling this shaft with one of my cobalt bits, but it's really hard steel and I won't attempt to try to thread it. I just sleeved the retainer bolt to secure the shaft.

                  • #36
                    i want to thank all y'all. got it back together, and noise is way down. still plan to do lifters on front at some point. now i understand hyd lifters.

                    rocker arm inner shaft, . no play.

                    i still think the lifter is talkin, but its good now.

                    the valve adjustment tips were JUST WHAT I NEEDED.

                    I got my champion trike exhaust adapters and muffler tip today, this trike is fun to ride.

                    as u no, i live in FL, happy hunting grounds of USA, well some of us have been here for half a century, some born here, so were old!

                    but the old Harley guys down the street are downright DROOLING OVER THIS THANG!

                    Here is how i came to swallow hydraulic valve theory:

                    https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...%20it%20tight.

                    Hydraulic lifters eliminate the clatter and the need for periodic adjustments by maintaining zero clearance when the engine is running. They do this by using oil pressure against a spring-loaded plunger inside the lifter body. Oil fills the cavity under the plunger when the valve is closed. This pushes the plunger up to take the slack out of the valvetrain and hold it tight. A one-way check valve inside the lifter holds the pressure inside the lifter as the valve opens. Since oil is incompressible, the oil trapped under the plunger prevents the plunger from compressing and the lifter act like a solid lifter to push the valve open.

                    Hydraulic lifters are also kinder on valvetrain components than solid lifters because zero valve lash reduces the hammering effect that occurs when the valves slam shut at higher engine speeds. There’s no air gap to fill so the valve simply follows the cam lobe as it closes for a more gentle landing. This also reduces noise and helps extend the life of the valvetrain components.

                    Under normal driving conditions, there’s no danger of the valves being pushed off their seats or not fully closing when they seat because the valve springs exert more pressure on the valvetrain than oil pressure inside the lifters. But at high engine speeds (say over 6,000 to 6,500 RPM), hydraulic lifters experience some limitations.

                    At high speed, hydraulic lifters may “pump up” and hold the valves open causing the valves to float. This can happen if the valve springs are not strong enough to maintain normal valve control, and the lifters try to take up the slack that really isn’t there. This overextends the plunger and prevents the valve from closing all the way. The same thing can happen if the oil inside the lifter does not bleed down quickly enough between cycles to maintain normal valve lash.

                    Hydraulic lifters can also “pump down” or collapse” at high RPM if they are leaking too much oil pressure internally due to sloppy assembly tolerances. This creates too much lash in the valvetrain, which results in noise and loss of power.

                    Hydraulic lifters are precision fit assemblies. The plunger is closely matched to the housing to provide minimal clearance so the leakdown rate is not too great or too small. That’s why you should never intermix the internal parts when you are cleaning and rebuilding a set of hydraulic lifters. Do each lifter individually so the original assembly tolerances are maintained.

                    One of the key differences between stock production hydraulic lifters and aftermarket performance lifters is that the latter usually have tighter internal tolerances for better oil control. Many performance hydraulic lifters also have better valving that allows them to handle more RPMs than their stock counterparts. A good set of aftermarket performance hydraulic lifters will typically allow an engine to rev 1,000 RPM higher than with stock hydraulic lifters. Some can handle even more RPMs. Even so, most hydraulic lifters can’t match the performance and reliability of solid lifters over 8,000 RPM. That’s why high revving engines in NASCAR, drag cars and circle track cars still use solid lifters.

                    Hydraulic Adjustments

                    Hydraulic lifters still need to be adjusted when they are initially installed so the plunger will operate in its mid-range of travel. If the plunger bottoms out, it may prevent the valve from closing causing a rough running engine and possible valve-to-piston contact. A plunger that is over extended and near its upper range of travel may not be able to maintain zero lash as engine temperature changes. This can increase engine noise, and it may even cause the plunger to hammer against the snap ring causing it to fail.

                    A hydraulic lifter plunger may also become over extended if an engine has sticking valves or excessive wear in the valvetrain. It can only take up so much slack before it runs out of adjustment.

                    Something else to keep in mind if you are replacing a set of hydraulic lifters is to make certain the plunger height in the replacement lifters is the same as the old lifters. A difference in plunger height will require longer or shorter pushrods to compensate

                    Comment


                    • #37
                      Hydraulic lifters are self adjusting. As of the rocker arm adjustment, (no valve adjustments), the rocker fingers are to be synchronized to be pushing the 2 valves equally. The adjusting screw should be gapped at 0.0016" cold, because the screw will expand laterally when it gets hot.
                      Lifters will pump up quickly when the engine starts, as what Davej has said. It's best to pump up the lifters before installing them.

                      Comment


                      • Shores
                        Shores commented
                        Editing a comment
                        So duke, do you recommend against using a zero lash adjustment?

                      • Duke
                        Duke commented
                        Editing a comment
                        The Yamaha service manual shows to adjust with a 0.0016" gap. I've always set my bikes to 0.002" and don't have any noise coming from the rockers.
                        I know from building several race engines with solid lifters, that heat changes the gaps on rockers to valves clearance.
                        If your setting the valves to zero clearance, it might be causing a little noise from the rocker finger that's non adjustable. I beleave more noise comes from the rocker shafts, then the valves on the 1700s.

                    • #38
                      Click image for larger version

Name:	pushrod post.jpg
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ID:	113201 Brian, Install a HP cam and then you can throw in a set of adjustable pushrods into the mix. lol

                      Comment


                      • #39
                        Worth noting I pumped up the lifters with kerosene and you could still depress them a little bit less than an eighth. Funny thing was they were both exactly the same, and then after I ran it for a few minutes they were hard as a rock. I had to make a bunch of new tools for this job, 10 mm combination cut in half I already had that but I had to get a metric hex bit set that fits in a tiny little ratchet not a quarter inch drive it's like a female that accepts a quarter inch bits. Various trimmed down, I guess it was 5 mm Allen keys, and the ever so useful ball end Allen that you guys here turned me on to. It really isn't that bad a job once you figure out the sequence I use both cliymers and Yamaha manuals. Cams no that would be a pain in the but, but doable

                        Comment


                        • #40
                          OK, i tore into lifters on front cylinder, seems to be noisy one. the lifter holder shows signs of wear,worn out as do the lifters, both rockers and shafts are in good order, and cam looks clean. SHOULD I GET USED lifter case/holders, or just bite bullet with new. i sure wish i woulda inspected rear one better. i am installing new lifters, the old ones were full of black molasses and grey debris.

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